Tuesday, December 11, 2007

When multiculturalism collides with Canadian Rights - Update: Teen is dead

"She just wanted to dress like we do"


* * * *

Very sad update: Aqsa Parvez has died of the injuries inflicted on her by her own father.

Aqsa's father, Muhammad Parvez, 57, has been charged with murder. He made a brief court appearance this morning and was remanded in custody pending another court appearance Wednesday.

The teen's brother - Waqas Parvez, 26 - has been charged with obstructing justice.


* * * *

To some people, the hijab is a symbol of faith, culture and a means of modesty in an increasingly secular, anything-goes Canada.

To others it is a symbol of oppression; even though some hijab-wearers insist it is more liberating because women are judged for themselves rather than their looks.

But all this hinges on the assumption of choice.

Such does not appear to be the case with a 16-year old girl who is now in critical condition after being choked by her father; who apparently was enraged by his daughter's desire to wear Western clothing - Were clothes behind the attack on teenager? (Post)

Her condition is so grave that police have not yet charged the man arrested at the scene until they know whether it will be a charge of murder or attempted murder. He was scheduled to appear in Brampton court today.


"He said that if she leaves, he would kill her."



This article is a real eye-opener. I wonder how many other Canadian girls are out there in similar circumstances. They must eventually either give in to the intimidation or face abuse of some kind.


A frightening situation for a country that considers itself so advanced in the area of Human Rights.


* * * *

More from the Toronto Sun - Friends feared worst.
Star - Teen clings to life, dad in custody.
P.C. - The Star on Hijab Murder - It 'can divide families'.

Montreal Muslim News - The Voice of Aqsa's blood cries from the ground:
...Now, every time people see a hijab-wearing woman walking down the street they will wonder if these women are forced to wear it for fear of the dangerous consequences if they refuse...

Above link from Dust my Broom - Aqsa Parvez has reportedly died.
Jonathan Kay - On the death of Aqsa Parvez.
Little Green Footballs - Strangled to death for not wearing a Hijab (with a dig at the Star).



Related: Quebec union wants a charter to ban religious garb -Post.
The Abaya Monologues - Post.
Globe - When multi morphs into plural.

72 comments:

Anonymous said...

A tragic situation. But an "eye opener"?

Only to those who have willfully kept their eyes closed to all the obvious things going on around them for the last decade.

We are heading to a multi-culti societal failure. I see no way out.

Platty said...

Tough subject Jo, even tougher to comment on. People will look at this and say it was the culture of those involved that brought this about. You have to wonder how any culture could drive a man to put tradition above his own daughters life.

That being said, I wasn't there and I do not know the family, there could very well have been other problems between the father and daughter that came to a head that day. No matter what the reason, it's sad that this young girls life is now hanging by a thread.


=

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Platty, it's sad for sure, and I agree that we don't know all the details.

However, I can say without reservation that choking your child is no way to deal with disobedience.

Lynn said...

You are 100% correct Joanne. I repeatedly read in the progressive media that the hijab and burka are perfectly acceptable because the women chooses it. That argument completely ignores the fact that the "choice" may be "do it or else" by the family. As we can see, in this religion "or else" can be quite extreme. Unfortunately, there is no way to identify who is choosing to wear it and who is forced. There appears to be no good solutions to prevent this problem. Therefore, the law must come down very hard on this father. His actions are completely unacceptable in Canadian society. I hope that the courts do not see this crime as culturally relative.

Platty said...

Very true, there is no excusing his actions.

Johnathon said...

I will guarantee you this muslim killer will only get between 4-7 years in prison.

He will be paroled after 2-4 years.

He lawyer will cry for manslaughter.

This is a clash of cultures.

The 16 year old girl who lived in Canada wanted to dress like a Canadian, not like a Palestinian.

Now she is dead.

And over at Liblogs.ca, not one mention of it.

Let's not kid ourselves here.'

For every girl that gets killed like this one, there are thousands who take the beatings and don't say a word.

I think we should all send the family a few letters to show how disgusted we are at this behaviour.

We should also send Stephane Dion and the Liberal cult a letter saying how we appreciate how they imported this problem from the middle east.

May this Canadian girl, who hated muslim repression rest in peace.

And may here father rest in hell, without 18 virgins.

kursk said...

AM talk 640 in Toronto is reporting that she has died..

maryT said...

The girl has died. This father better get a tougher sentence than Latimer did.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

This is terrible.

Thanks for the sad update.

Anonymous said...

Now we get to pay for his jail time. I'd rather he was deported - whether he serves time or goes back to Pakistan doesn't bring this girl back. But at least we don't foot the bill for his halal meals.

I wonder what the rest of the family was doing in the home while this man was choking a girl to death? This does not happen in 2 seconds. He is nearly 60, and she is not a little child. There had to be a struggle. Where was the mother? The sisters? Did the brother help?

Disgusting.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

I wonder what the rest of the family was doing in the home while this man was choking a girl to death?

From the Post link:

"Neighbours said as many as 11 people lived in the home, which was sealed off by crime scene tape and surrounded by police cars yesterday, all members of an extended Pakistani family. Const. Valade confirmed that there were other people in the home when the teenager was attacked."

liberal supporter said...

This is why the idea of allowing sharia law (even when all parties agree) for family disputes was dropped. Even though it prevents other faiths from having their own tribunals which were not a problem.

Unfortunately, sometimes cultural sensitivity means being sensitive to the fact that this kind of coercion still exists in the culture. Screaming at the daughter for dressing like a whore (in his view) would be frowned on, but allowed with reservations. The "reservations" are that people who are legally free may not be in fact. Which is why the sharia for family law disputes was abandoned.

Assaulting her is a crime. Simple as that.

But usually "the culture" is simply the excuse given for someone's craziness. Cultural sensitivity in this case means he will be allowed the holy books of his choice while he is in jail.

Mike C said...

This is a hate crime made worse by the fact that the man killed his daughter.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

A hate crime?

Mike C said...

Based on religion (or lack of acceptable practice thereof).

Anonymous said...

islam is evil. anyone who will kill their child because they think religion says so should be killled immediately. do not pass go do not collect 200$. we are allowing this evil religion to infect our country and it must be stopped.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Mike, I see your point. It was certainly wasn't an act of love or peace.


As an aside, comments on this topic will be heavily moderated.

Direct attacks against certain religions cannot be published. Please try rephrasing your comment so I won't get sued. Thanks.

Mike C said...

I stand corrected. Apparently, you cannot be charged, in Canada, with a hate crime if the, alleged, crime is an "expression of a religious opinion".

So, assuming that the father believes that what he did is in keeping with his religion, he's all clear I suppose... Except for going to Hell I guess.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

I'm not sure about a Hate Crime or going to hell, but the man allegedly committed murder. Let's hope he is punished appropriately if convicted.

liberal supporter said...

Apparently, you cannot be charged, in Canada, with a hate crime if the, alleged, crime is an "expression of a religious opinion".

That's the loophole so you can say "God Hates Fags". It doesn't allow you to say "God wants you to kill fags".

He could be charged with a hate crime, since his crime was partly fueled by religious bigotry. Usually this increases how aggravated the crime is considered to be.

What the hate crime side of it would do, is to prevent him from being considered "not a danger to the community", which often happens when the perp and victim know each other. He is acting like the iranian religious police, and so is a danger to anyone who doesn't conform to his religious view.

Throw the book at him.

Anonymous said...

How many of you remember little Farah Khan , her parents were pro-Sharia law Muslim immigrants and they were the one that murdered her as a Honour killing and then hacked her up to bury the body parts near the waterfront in a park just South of the Lakeshore and west the Toronto boundery.

Daddy dearest got his lawyer to ague that Islam allowed for him to slit her throat,but the Judge didn't buy it , and he didn't buy the story that she attempted suicide by sliting her own throat and then hacking herself into little pieces so she could fit into small bags.

I getting sick of this crap where the media foes out of their way to absolve islam of any link to the Domestic dispute , and even after several people exposed the violent life of Muhammad who beheaded POW's for Allah , we still hear the Islamists defend his murders by claiming the English version are "Out of context" and the Quran must be read in its pure form in Arabic.

Just look at Dr.Elmasry and Dr.Sheema khan , they both launched lawsuits against the media to silence reporters from exposing the Terrorism ties by CAIR or Islamists in canada that overtly support Hamas and Hezballah .
Sheema Khan mislead the Arar Inquiry over 17 Muslims there were rounded-up because of islamophobia and racial profiling , she failed to point out that 26 Illegals with forged papers or expired Visa were legally removed as allowed by the U.N. for national security to protect civilians .
Tarek Fatah hijacked the removals by focusing on the 17 males out of the 26 that happened to be Pakistani/Sunni/young/students being sheltered by other Muslims in Toronto , Fatah still posts his tirade on the MCC website that attacks the RCMP for ruining their lives and smearing their names in the Media.

Say what????

Canada legally removes "Illegals"
and because 17 of the 26 are from a terrorist producing area of Pakistan we see Tarek turn this into Racial-profiling and anti-Muslim bigotry ever since 9/11 that had NOTHING to do with islam.

Elmasry was on the Michael Coren TV show and I saw him defend hamas by telling Coren that "Every israeli over 18 is a valid taget for suicide bombers because of the State Military service" .
Elamsry never said any Israeli INSIDE Israel but only every Israeli , and that upset the Jewish student at the UofW where Elamasry teached and the Muslim Student Assoc displayed overt anitsemitism and spewed hatred for the West and canada.

Muslims now remind me of the case where a man argued that 'Just because 99% of the lawyers and blood-sucking liars and money hungry weasels doesn't mean we should stereotype the 1% of the honest hard working lawyers for the action of the others" .

canada's muslims make up only about 0.00064% of the Worlds total Muslims and lets not assume that their version of the Quran is correct and the other 99.99946% are the ones perverting it and smearing islam with terrorism and suicide bombings to slaughter civilians.

maybe all the Muslims outside of canada have it right and the 400'000 living here have fooled the CBC with the 'Little Mosque On the Praire' image where all the Christians are redneck bigots and ignorant islamophobe or Racists .

Keep in mind that Racism is now a valid defence by Muslims for running to the HRC and Suing anyone that hurts their feelings.

Lord Kitchener's Own said...

I have to say that I don't see this as having much to do with "multiculturalism" or religious tolerance so much as it has to do with some crazy guy killing his daughter. The fact that his insanity is couched in religious terms is relevant, I suppose, but not really the key issue.

When something (very rare) like this happens there are always denunciations of Islam, or people decrying "multiculturalism" as though that were the problem. If a Christian kills a homosexual, or a whoite guy beats his daughter for dating a black guy, we don't often hear the same people deploring Christianity, or claiming that "anglo-saxon cluture" is inconsistent with Canadian values. In one case we seem to be able to understand that "crazy guy" is just "crazy guy", even if he's "religious" (or purports to be) but in the other, he's just "religious guy" (as though he were sanely following the tenets of his religion or culture, and the religion or culture is to blame, not the killer).

Like the homosexual-killing Christian (or the Hindu-killing Sikh or the black-killing white guy etc... etc...) this crazy man is the exception, not the rule, and I think it's exceedingly unfair to blame a religion, or race (let alone "multiculturalism") for the behaviour of a mad man.

I think treating this as a "Muslim" crime does a disservice not only to Islam, but to us all. It suggests, somehow, that this wasn't "insanity" but that it was "religion", and making a distinction between those two things is very important. This animal was a nutjob, not a Muslim, and don't let the media convince you otherwise.

Lord Kitchener's Own said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Doug said...

"Direct attacks against certain religions cannot be published. Please try rephrasing your comment so I won't get sued. Thanks"--Jo.

Do I really need to comment on that ? Only in Canada, you say ?

What a cosmic joke this country has become. Can't offend the offendable, but we can drag the thought-criminals off to the Star Chambers of the Human Rights Court.

Thank goodness that I am geting on in years and won't be around to see the culmination of this deliberate descent into the void.

Reflexive and snide Anti-Americanism is about all that defines this country at this point. How sad is that ?

Frank Hilliard said...

Lord Kitchener's Own doesn't think this was a Muslim crime. I wish that were true. I wish for all our sake it was a mad, bad, insane father. Unfortunately, that's not the case. It was, instead, a father acting out his religious duty, his duty to ISLAM!

There's no way around this folks; it's the religion that's the problem. Islam is not compatible with Western liberal democracy.

Lord Omar said...

Hear, hear.

(only works if I'm queued in chronological sequence where in the Magical Land of Moderazione di commento)

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Omar - No way for anything but Comment Mod with this one, I'm afraid.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Doug - With what's happening to Mark Steyn and Macleans, I can't take any chances.

However, good discussion going on about this at SDA. Maybe she has a legal team. I don't.

Lynn said...

I would like to give this religion the benefit of the doubt.

Unfortunately, observations say that this is not uncommon in Muslim countries or practice. Witness the rape victim sentenced to 100 lashes, the teacher charged in the Teddy Bear scandal, Ali Hirsi's life story, the killing of teachers and female students in Afghanistan .....the list is endless. Once is an incident, twice is a co-incidence, repeated occurrences is a trend. Remember too that western Christians and Anglo Saxons do not defend their kind when they kill in this manner.

Honor killing must not be given a toe hold in this country because we are beholden to political correctness. Call it what it is and eradicate its practice in Canada.

kursk said...

Lord Kitcheners own, your comment smacks of the apologist, relativist kind we too often see here in Canada.

Religious sensibility had everything to do with this murder.

I know of no other religion that orders its followers to kill if others don't believe or don't toe the line.

An uncommon occurrence? Why just back about two months ago we had a muslim father trying to kill his daughter and friends with his van over perceived wrongs.This was all about the intolerance of Islam as well.

This religion is incompatable with western values,ours in particular.We will rue the day we allowed mass immigration of Muslims from third world countries into Canada .

Anonymous said...

Until we realize that there are cultures where daughters and females are not prized and are meant to bow to the will of the male, we will continue to struggle with this.

Nothing will change unless our country and its judiciary are prepared to send any and all new citizens a message that it's not acceptable to kill your children.

Given the sideshow we've got going on in Ottawa at the moment fogive me when I say that I have no confidence in our gov't, judiciary or anyone else to expect that when folks choose Canada they should be expected to assimilate to our laws, standards, lifestyle, not make us bend to them. No country can possibly survive the melting pot otherwise.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Some cultures seem to regard women as chattel, and therein lies the problem.

bigcitylib said...

The brother's behavior is esp. disappointing.

I'm not sure how multiculturalism is supposed to be to be at fault here. I know of no place in the act that says you're allowed to kill your daughter if you don't like the way she's dressed.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

BCL - I think we've all heard of 'honour killings' before.

Anonymous said...

is it acceptable in Canada though Joanne. That's the question and who can we count on to send that message?

We have no idea what goes on behind the closed doors of any who call Canada home. Do we really want to?

It's only when tragedy strikes do we all get our undies in a twist and solve the world's problems on a blog rather than actual commit to acting.

Misery loves company I guess

Joanne (True Blue) said...

That's the question and who can we count on to send that message?

I'd like to know where all the feminists are right now.

Jeff Davidson said...

how do honour killings reflect on multiculturalism?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Jeff, some people have trouble disengaging from previous cultural norms when they enter a new country.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

BTW, Jeff, still waiting for a response here.

kursk said...

How does it reflect on multiculteralism? Very badly Jeff.

Mainly because it puts to lie the memé that all cultural practices are equal, and should be given equal weight in regards to our tolerance of them.

I can only think that outside of social engineers, no one should be happy with these results.

The average Canadian can only be left to wonder how colorful dresses and exotic foods morphed into child honour killings.

The only inescapable conclusion you can come to is that we were all lied to by the culteral relativists in order to transform our country by way of demography.

No one i know can recall being consulted about the sea change that was foisted on Canadians starting in and around 1968.

Please remember to thank the liberals for the genesis of these problems next time they come to your door schilling for votes..

OMMAG said...

Oh yes a dead teenager!
And the apologists, the arguers of moral equivalence and the libcomsimps are out in force.

Why exactly do these people not get it?

In Jeffy's case that's a rhetorical question.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Info about honour killings in Canada here.

liberal supporter said...

Mainly because it puts to lie the memé that all cultural practices are equal, and should be given equal weight in regards to our tolerance of them.

No, that statement is the lie here. Who said we should tolerate murder?

The only inescapable conclusion you can come to is that we were all lied to by the culteral relativists in order to transform our country by way of demography.


No, the inescapable conclusion is that bigots will use a murder by a nut to advance their meme, such as to claim everyone who is in some way like the murderer is bad.


No one i know can recall being consulted about the sea change that was foisted on Canadians starting in and around 1968.

Baloney. Sea changes are what the Harper government will give us with a majority. What you are talking about is hardly a "sea change".


Nothing new here I see. Everything is the fault of those bad old Liberals. Yawn.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Global News just reported that the brother had allegedly lured her home to help her get more clothes, and then the attack occurred.

liberal supporter said...

It would seem the whole family was in on it, or at least complicit.

All accessories I would think.

Anonymous said...

I can't believe the naivete of some commenters here who are unable to see(or don't want to admit) the connection to multiculturalism. Is the essence of multiculturalism not this: "Come to Canada...and bring your cultures here to enhance Canada, and prove we are not racist".
This girl was murdered because she would not follow the old culture(wearing the hijab).
She chose to exercise choice,(the Canadian style) and is killed by her own family. In the ME this is totally acceptable.
In Canada it is murder.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

he chose to exercise choice,(the Canadian style) and is killed by her own family.

Perhaps this is what is most upsetting. We see a beautiful young girl embracing our country; wanting to fit in; and her father feels threatened to the point of (allegedly) murdering her to make sure that doesn't happen.

What was he afraid of?

Anonymous said...

Robert Latimer committed the crime of murder and was given a sentence set out by law. Latimer's case also had activists groups allowed to speak in his court case.

It bothers me not one group has stepped up involving this girls case and denounced such an absolutely deporable crime. Watch for politicians to tippy-toe around it with non-answers. From what is being reported this is clearly first-degree murder. The girls killing was pre-meditated by the fact she was lured home.

I heard someone from the Canadian Muslim Congress on Adler today (Tarek?) saying there are about 5000 honor killings in pakistan every year, and they rarely result in charges.

paulsstuff

bigcitylib said...

Joanne,

Where does rhe Multiculturalism act endorse honor killings?

Annie said...

Where is Irene Mathyssen and her outrage on the of abuse of women? Hmmm???

It scares me to think that perhaps its only 'white' women that are entitled to defense.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Where does rhe Multiculturalism act endorse honor killings?

Where did I say it did?

Anonymous said...

This is so sad. I have a sixteen year old daughter in grade eleven and high school is her life. This poor Pakistani teen just wanted to fit in. Isn't that what immigrant families are supposed to do??
I'm going to have a few stiff drinks, do a crossword puzzle or two and listen to Christmas music on iTunes.
NeilD

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Yes, Neil. It's very sad. Must be so difficult for her young friends.

Interesting comments here. A whole range of opinions.

Anonymous said...

IT'S WRONG TO KILL YOUR CHILDREN In CANADA!!!

No matter the culture, no matter the religion.

If we don't trust a judiciary or gov't to send this message we're pretty much a sad excuse for a country.

Cherniak_WTF said...

I think treating this as a "Muslim" crime does a disservice not only to Islam, but to us all.
You make a saner point but it seems that the Connies on this site would like to make it about Muslims.
It's amazing all the bigots you attract Joanne.

So should we start talking about all the Christian crazies that go on murdering sprees? Of course that will somehow be different, right? I love the shrieking half-wits here....

Jason Bo Green said...

If a Christian kills a homosexual, or a whoite guy beats his daughter for dating a black guy, we don't often hear the same people deploring Christianity, or claiming that "anglo-saxon cluture" is inconsistent with Canadian values.

I'm afraid you're full of shit on this one, LKO - because I hear that often. More in America than Canada, but it's a very common meme.

I'm not religious personally and am not personally offended by those statements. I'm just saying, they're made frequently, and you're wrong.

You're also wrong about his motivation: This man killed his daughter for religious reasons, and his religion carries some burden of blame.

Jason Bo Green said...

So should we start talking about all the Christian crazies that go on murdering sprees?

Please, let's - because there's a LOT of Christian crazies.


How come no one blinks when I say, "Man, the Catholic Church sure is awful," but everyone gets in a tizzy when I say the same about Islam? Islam isn't a baby, it can take its hard knocks as much as any "white", "Western" version.

Lord Kitchener's Own said...

I think my comment has been widely misread. I'm CERTAINLY not being an apologist for this mad-man. In fact, I would argue that those who are buying his argument that he did this for "religious reasons" are doing more to excuse his actions than I. This man did this for INSANE reasons, which he'll no doubt choose to pass off as "religious duty", but that doesn't mean we need to all get sucked in by his obviously twisted logic. To buy that argument, or to parrot it, is to excuse (to some degree) this mad-man's actions. To say that he did this because of "religion" is to lessen his responsibility for this abomination, and diffuse responsibility for this act across an entire faith (or, perhaps even ALL faiths and cultures, if one chooses to blame "multiculturalism"). Certainly this mad-man seems to believe that his act of murder had some religious basis, but there's no reason for us to acquiese to that insane twisting of a religion thousands of Canadians practice honourably and peacefully.

What I'm saying is that it's EQUALLY wrong to attack "Christianity" when some nutjob kills a gay man for "religious reasons", or to blame "white people" when some nutjob goes on a racist killing spree, as it is to blame "Islam" (let alone "multiculturalism") when some nutjob kills his daughter for "religious reasons". Just because people SAY they do things in the name of their religion or culture doesn't make it true. Just because some Muslims are nutjobs (and some Christians are nutjobs, and some Jews...) isn't an indictment of these religions, it's an indictment of nutjobs.

This man was no more following Islam when he killed his daughter than a Christian is following Christ when he blows up an abortion clinic, or kills a homosexual. The problem is not religion, or culture, it is people who will abuse and twist religion and culture to excuse murder. Multiculturalism is about an openess to the culture and faith of many different groups, not about condoning or apologizing for fanaticism disguised as "faith" or "culture". Extremism and fanaticism are the enemies here, not tolerance and faith. Attack the crazies who cloak their insanity in the disguise of faith, by all means. But attacking a religion, or a system meant to be open to faiths and cultures the world over seems a horrible response to the act of a mad man to me.

Lord Kitchener's Own said...

Also, just on the Christian/homosexual comparison, I wanted to add that a lot of commenters have totally missed the subtelty of the point I was making.

I wasn't saying that "people" never seem to decry Christianity when a Christian murders a homosexual or blows up an abortion clinic. Peopl most certainly do (that's what makes it an analogous scenario). What I said was that the SAME people don't make this argument (my exact words: "we don't often hear the same people deploring Christianity, or claiming that 'anglo-saxon culture' is inconsistent with Canadian values" (emphasis added). My point is, one group (mostly "the left") attacks all of Christianity when some "Christian" nutjob beats a gay man to death or bombs a free clinic, while a totally DIFFERENT group (mostly "the right") attacks all of Islam (or even "multiculturalism") when some "Muslim" nutjob does something like what happened in Mississauga. My point is that BOTH arguments are inane, and that it's shocking that one side doesn't see that they're merely mirroring the other with their twisted logic. The smae people who freak out when "Christianity" is blamed are all too willing to blame "Islam" and vice versa, and it's crazy.

Jo Bo Green no doubt DOES "hear this all the time" with regards to Christians, but it seems to have totally escaped him that if he's outraged when he hears faulty logic in once instance, perhaps he should avoid shouting it himself in another! In this case, turn-about is NOT fair play.

My point is that BOTH the left AND the right are guilty of this twisted logic, and that it makes no more sense in one case than it does in the other.

LynnH said...

Your points are well taken. I would hope that you would also consider the world wide rise of the Muslim extremism. Christianity extremism on the other hand has been in decline for quite a while now.

This fathers actions is symbolic of a wider issue. The issue is what should Canadians response be to honor killings. Will a strong stand be taken by the justice system or will political correctness take over? Will our tolerance of cultural diversity and fear of racism charges trump sending a strong message that Canada will not tolerate this barbaric practice?

I for one, have very little faith that the legal system to send the proper message.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps the "old boys" have run the show for too long and it's time to elect more women to government?

We all know that the old boys still dominate, despite efforts of those same boys to insist they're doing the best they can in that dept.

I'm no feminist, but I'm thinking the female voice is being lost in an argument among too many males.

Lord Kitchener's Own said...

Not a bad point either Lynn, and I do acknowledge that TODAY "Muslim" extremism (I use quotes because it's extremism cloaked in Islam, imho, not some inherent problem with Islam or (true) Muslims) seems to be a greater problem than "Christian" extremism. I just feel that the focus needs to be on "extremism" not "Muslim" (or "Islam").

TODAY, Islam seems to be infected more by extremism, as in the past Christianity suffered more from this ill. In the future, it may be some other religion or culture. That's why, to me, the focus needs to be on the extremism, the fundamentalism, not the particular faith that's been twisted by it.

LynnH said...

LKO

Here is an article that talks about some of these important issues. It is a serious and thoughtful attempt to look at the problems between extremism and western democracy. IMHO.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2568533_1,00.html

Frank Hilliard said...

Dear Lord Kitchener's Own,

If only you were right. Unfortunately it was not that this guy (and his son) were crazy, it's because they were trying to be truly Islamic. It's the religion, this religion, that's responsible and which we should condemn.

Islam is the problem and until we get our minds around this fact, it will continue to be one for Western liberal democracies like Canada.

LynnH said...

Correct link to: post knocked off the _1,00.html at the end

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/
0,,2092-2568533_1,00.html

By contrast, some contemporary Muslim communities (and those of other religions) are making demands for group rights that simply cannot be squared with liberal principles of individual equality. These demands include special exemptions from the family law that applies to everyone else in the society, the right to exclude non-Muslims from certain types of public events, or the right to challenge free speech in the name of religious offence (as with the Danish cartoons incident).

Jason Bo Green said...

LKO, if your point was that you don't often hear the same people decrying Christianity in the same way as Islam, then I would completely agree with you, and apologize for the misunderstanding. Kathy Shaidle is the poster child for the idiocy you're talking about, and people like her make me extremely uncomfortable.

I do blame Islamic teachings in this instance, the same as I blame Christian teachings in the case of abortion clinic murders.

Again, I'm not religious. But I agree with Lynn - Christian extremism is (mercifully) in great decline, while Islamic extremism is increasing.

I don't think attitudes among general people (Kathy Shaidle-types excluded) would be any less strong if a Catholic father murdered a daughter for having an abortion. Canadians would be outraged and horrified in the same way.

Lord Kitchener's Own said...

True Jason, Canadians would be outraged and horrified at a Catholic father killing his daughter for having an abortion, but I'm not sure they'd be horrified "in the same way". I don't think there'd be as many people blaming "Catholicism" for the murder as there are blaming "Islam" for the murder in Mississauga (there would be some, but I question if it would be as widespread), even though the father in the Catholic example might be just as adamant that he killed his daughter because his religion demanded it. Maybe that's because one religion's extremists are in ascendency, and the other's in decline, but that also suggests to me that that trend (like any) could reverse someday, so a lot of people are focusing on the symptom, not the cause.

I think the common reaction in that hypothetical would be "the father is crazy, and doesn't represent Catholicism" whereas the common reaction to the Mississauga case is decidedly (here at least) "MUSLIMS are crazy, and this guy is an example". The crazy Catholic committing murder in the name of God is, it seems to me, much more likely to be seen as an aboration, than a representative sample. I think most would hold him up as an example of how fundamentalism can twist a religion to evil, whereas the Muslim example is used to "prove" that the religion itself is evil. Now, I don't disagree that this is because there are more Muslims out there who are radical (read: crazy) than Catholics, but I view this not as proof that Muslims are crazy, or that Islam is bad but as proof that, at this moment in time, a lot of crazy people are missappropriating Islam to justify their ideology. Just as Christians once missappropriated Christianity to justify the crusades, or the IRA misappropriated Catholicism to justify bombing Protestants. That it is so today does not mean it was ever so, or will continue as such forever.

It's the Muslim's turn these days to have their religion used as a tool of twisted people who are twisting their religion to evil ends. It'll be someone else's turn tomorrow, and I think focusing on Islam as the problem won't solve much. If you could snap your fingers and make Islam disappear tomorrow, none of these crazies would stop acting crazy. They'd just use the Bible (or some other holy book) to justify their actions, instead of the Qu'ran (and trust me, everything you can "justify" by citing a verse in the Qu'ran you can "justify" by citing a verse in the Bible).

To me, it seems if you're going to argue that Islam should be stopped because it can be twisted to evil ends, one could just as easily say that ORGANIZED RELIGION should be stopped, because it can be twisted to evil ends (and plenty of people believe that RELIGION, not Islam, or Christianity, or Judaism is the real evil here... though I hasten to add, that's not me!). I'm not remotely willing to go there, but it does seem to be the inevitable conclusion to a lot of posters' logic, if they chose to see that far into the future.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

even though the father in the Catholic example might be just as adamant that he killed his daughter because his religion demanded it.

Just out of curiosity, where does it say this in Catholicism? If it's just a hypothetical example, can we substitute the Jewish faith?

Lord Kitchener's Own said...

We could substitute any example, of course, and I would also add that just because a religion doesn't ever SAY "Do X" doesn't mean no one will ever CLAIM that it says "Do X". I certainly don't want to single out Catholicism, it's just quite a bother to constantly reference every religion there is (we could substitute Sikhism, Judaism, Hinduism, probably even Buddhism, though that last one might be tougher!).

However, I also don't think we need to go into Chapter and Verse for us all to realize that the Bible says we should all do a bunch of crazy stuff that we clearly shouldn't do. I just don't think there's any point in smearing Christianity by actually quoting from the Bible (and I wasn't trying to smear Christianity or Catholicism by using them as examples, somuch as trying to provide examples that people could RELATE to, in terms of THEIR religion being misappropriated to justify evil). Though there's a LOT of stuff in the Bible that doesn't make Christianity look good, and which could be used to justify ALL SORTS of atrocities, my purpose isn't to attack Christianity, or religion, somuch as to explain why we perhaps shouldn't attack "Islam".

Joanne (True Blue) said...

LKO - Point taken.

Perhaps what we should be doing is somehow trying to offer help to these fathers whose daughters are becoming Westernized way faster than they feel comfortable with? (OMG, I'm turning Liberal!)

Lord Kitchener's Own said...

Well, not to turn conservative, but I wouldn't be opposed to the idea that we shouldn't be trying to "help" these fathers so much as we should be trying to lock them up (BEFORE the fact, that is). Again though, not because they're "Muslim" (which, really, I think most Muslims - in Canada - would say they aren't) but because they're nuts (in the colloquial sense, not the "not criminally responsible" sense).

I'm quite certain we could have locked this guy up (and possibly his son too) for any number of things he did before killing his daughter.

That said, I'm sure there ARE Mulsim immigrants (and OTHER immigrants too, it's not just about Muslims) who could benefit greatly from some form of "help" dealing with their assimiliation into Western culture. There may have even been a point (long ago) when this particular man might have been helped by such a program. However I wouldn't want to leave the impression that it's as simple as that either. To a point, help with assimilation could be useful. There was also a point, betwen the end of that kind of program being useful, and this man murdering his daughter, when we undoubtedly could have locked him up, and given his daughter protection. There's a spectrum, and I'm not at all certain that this man in particular was ever at a point on that spectrum where the kind of help you suggest would have been at all effective. However, I'm convinced there was a point (probably many) at which we could have locked him up before it got to this tragic point. I find it hard to fathom that this murder was his first act of criminality in relation to his daughter (and maybe others) or that somehow this couldn't have been prevented before it ended in murder.

(as an aside, thanks for not laying in to my sloppy hypothetical too much Joanne... I really didn't want to start quoting Leviticus, so I'm glad we avoided that!).

Jason Bo Green said...

Well... I'm not sure, but you may be right. Me, I'd blame Catholicism as a prime cause for that hypothetical murder as much as I would Islam in this one. But, your description of those who might not does bring to mind some real-life people I know, so I can recognize the truth in what you say... Still, perhaps it's just optimism, but I do think that most people, the majority, would judge each situation equally. I strongly believe religion was a motive in this death, regardless of which religion it is.