tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post1008678770630813262..comments2023-10-19T06:24:41.808-04:00Comments on Joanne's Journey: When multiculturalism collides with Canadian Rights - Update: Teen is deadJoanne (True Blue)http://www.blogger.com/profile/17445664997050698154noreply@blogger.comBlogger72125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-4393714832258404342007-12-13T18:03:00.000-05:002007-12-13T18:03:00.000-05:00Well... I'm not sure, but you may be right. Me, I...Well... I'm not sure, but you may be right. Me, I'd blame Catholicism as a prime cause for that hypothetical murder as much as I would Islam in this one. But, your description of those who might not does bring to mind some real-life people I know, so I can recognize the truth in what you say... Still, perhaps it's just optimism, but I do think that most people, the majority, would judge each situation equally. I strongly believe religion was a motive in this death, regardless of which religion it is.Jacques Beau Verthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16450947780950412676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-53317073774902031942007-12-12T18:02:00.000-05:002007-12-12T18:02:00.000-05:00Well, not to turn conservative, but I wouldn't be ...Well, not to turn conservative, but I wouldn't be opposed to the idea that we shouldn't be trying to "help" these fathers so much as we should be trying to lock them up (BEFORE the fact, that is). Again though, not because they're "Muslim" (which, really, I think most Muslims - in Canada - would say they aren't) but because they're nuts (in the colloquial sense, not the "not criminally responsible" sense).<BR/><BR/>I'm quite certain we could have locked this guy up (and possibly his son too) for any number of things he did before killing his daughter.<BR/><BR/>That said, I'm sure there ARE Mulsim immigrants (and OTHER immigrants too, it's not just about Muslims) who could benefit greatly from some form of "help" dealing with their assimiliation into Western culture. There may have even been a point (long ago) when this particular man might have been helped by such a program. However I wouldn't want to leave the impression that it's as simple as that either. To a point, help with assimilation could be useful. There was also a point, betwen the end of that kind of program being useful, and this man murdering his daughter, when we undoubtedly could have locked him up, and given his daughter protection. There's a spectrum, and I'm not at all certain that this man in particular was ever at a point on that spectrum where the kind of help you suggest would have been at all effective. However, I'm convinced there was a point (probably many) at which we could have locked him up before it got to this tragic point. I find it hard to fathom that this murder was his first act of criminality in relation to his daughter (and maybe others) or that somehow this couldn't have been prevented before it ended in murder.<BR/><BR/>(as an aside, thanks for not laying in to my sloppy hypothetical too much Joanne... I really didn't want to start quoting Leviticus, so I'm glad we avoided that!).Lord Kitchener's Ownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348376638620272991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-40950654125916250032007-12-12T17:45:00.000-05:002007-12-12T17:45:00.000-05:00LKO - Point taken.Perhaps what we should be doing ...LKO - Point taken.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps what we should be doing is somehow trying to offer help to these fathers whose daughters are becoming Westernized way faster than they feel comfortable with? (OMG, I'm turning Liberal!)Joanne (True Blue)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17445664997050698154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-41109410717025213962007-12-12T17:18:00.000-05:002007-12-12T17:18:00.000-05:00We could substitute any example, of course, and I ...We could substitute any example, of course, and I would also add that just because a religion doesn't ever SAY "Do X" doesn't mean no one will ever CLAIM that it says "Do X". I certainly don't want to single out Catholicism, it's just quite a bother to constantly reference every religion there is (we could substitute Sikhism, Judaism, Hinduism, probably even Buddhism, though that last one might be tougher!).<BR/><BR/>However, I also don't think we need to go into Chapter and Verse for us all to realize that the Bible says we should all do a bunch of crazy stuff that we clearly shouldn't do. I just don't think there's any point in smearing Christianity by actually quoting from the Bible (and I wasn't trying to smear Christianity or Catholicism by using them as examples, somuch as trying to provide examples that people could RELATE to, in terms of THEIR religion being misappropriated to justify evil). Though there's a LOT of stuff in the Bible that doesn't make Christianity look good, and which could be used to justify ALL SORTS of atrocities, my purpose isn't to attack Christianity, or religion, somuch as to explain why we perhaps shouldn't attack "Islam".Lord Kitchener's Ownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348376638620272991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-1060035190223182992007-12-12T17:04:00.000-05:002007-12-12T17:04:00.000-05:00even though the father in the Catholic example mig...<I>even though the father in the Catholic example might be just as adamant that he killed his daughter because his religion demanded it.</I><BR/><BR/>Just out of curiosity, where does it say this in Catholicism? If it's just a hypothetical example, can we substitute the Jewish faith?Joanne (True Blue)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17445664997050698154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-77609067513747280702007-12-12T16:51:00.000-05:002007-12-12T16:51:00.000-05:00True Jason, Canadians would be outraged and horrif...True Jason, Canadians would be outraged and horrified at a Catholic father killing his daughter for having an abortion, but I'm not sure they'd be horrified "in the same way". I don't think there'd be as many people blaming "Catholicism" for the murder as there are blaming "Islam" for the murder in Mississauga (there would be some, but I question if it would be as widespread), even though the father in the Catholic example might be just as adamant that he killed his daughter because his religion demanded it. Maybe that's because one religion's extremists are in ascendency, and the other's in decline, but that also suggests to me that that trend (like any) could reverse someday, so a lot of people are focusing on the symptom, not the cause.<BR/><BR/>I think the common reaction in that hypothetical would be "the father is crazy, and doesn't represent Catholicism" whereas the common reaction to the Mississauga case is decidedly (here at least) "MUSLIMS are crazy, and this guy is an example". The crazy Catholic committing murder in the name of God is, it seems to me, much more likely to be seen as an aboration, than a representative sample. I think most would hold him up as an example of how fundamentalism can twist a religion to evil, whereas the Muslim example is used to "prove" that the religion itself is evil. Now, I don't disagree that this is because there are more Muslims out there who are radical (read: crazy) than Catholics, but I view this not as proof that Muslims are crazy, or that Islam is bad but as proof that, at this moment in time, a lot of crazy people are missappropriating Islam to justify their ideology. Just as Christians once missappropriated Christianity to justify the crusades, or the IRA misappropriated Catholicism to justify bombing Protestants. That it is so today does not mean it was ever so, or will continue as such forever. <BR/><BR/>It's the Muslim's turn these days to have their religion used as a tool of twisted people who are twisting their religion to evil ends. It'll be someone else's turn tomorrow, and I think focusing on Islam as the problem won't solve much. If you could snap your fingers and make Islam disappear tomorrow, none of these crazies would stop acting crazy. They'd just use the Bible (or some other holy book) to justify their actions, instead of the Qu'ran (and trust me, everything you can "justify" by citing a verse in the Qu'ran you can "justify" by citing a verse in the Bible).<BR/><BR/>To me, it seems if you're going to argue that Islam should be stopped because it can be twisted to evil ends, one could just as easily say that ORGANIZED RELIGION should be stopped, because it can be twisted to evil ends (and plenty of people believe that RELIGION, not Islam, or Christianity, or Judaism is the real evil here... though I hasten to add, that's not me!). I'm not remotely willing to go there, but it does seem to be the inevitable conclusion to a lot of posters' logic, if they chose to see that far into the future.Lord Kitchener's Ownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348376638620272991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-33597705813296469262007-12-12T15:16:00.000-05:002007-12-12T15:16:00.000-05:00LKO, if your point was that you don't often hear t...LKO, if your point was that you don't often hear the <B>same people</B> decrying Christianity in the same way as Islam, then I would completely agree with you, and apologize for the misunderstanding. Kathy Shaidle is the poster child for the idiocy you're talking about, and people like her make me extremely uncomfortable.<BR/><BR/>I do blame Islamic teachings in this instance, the same as I blame Christian teachings in the case of abortion clinic murders. <BR/><BR/>Again, I'm not religious. But I agree with Lynn - Christian extremism is (mercifully) in great decline, while Islamic extremism is increasing.<BR/><BR/>I don't think attitudes among general people (Kathy Shaidle-types excluded) would be any less strong if a Catholic father murdered a daughter for having an abortion. Canadians would be outraged and horrified in the same way.Jacques Beau Verthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16450947780950412676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-42718335936684314182007-12-12T14:46:00.000-05:002007-12-12T14:46:00.000-05:00Correct link to: post knocked off the _1,00.html a...Correct link to: post knocked off the _1,00.html at the end<BR/><BR/>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/<BR/>0,,2092-2568533_1,00.html<BR/><BR/>By contrast, some contemporary Muslim communities (and those of other religions) are making demands for group rights that simply cannot be squared with liberal principles of individual equality. These demands include special exemptions from the family law that applies to everyone else in the society, the right to exclude non-Muslims from certain types of public events, or the right to challenge free speech in the name of religious offence (as with the Danish cartoons incident).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-6940201438387899422007-12-12T14:45:00.000-05:002007-12-12T14:45:00.000-05:00Dear Lord Kitchener's Own,If only you were right. ...Dear Lord Kitchener's Own,<BR/><BR/>If only you were right. Unfortunately it was not that this guy (and his son) were crazy, it's because they were trying to be truly Islamic. It's the religion, this religion, that's responsible and which we should condemn. <BR/><BR/>Islam is the problem and until we get our minds around this fact, it will continue to be one for Western liberal democracies like Canada.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-44181177753242518062007-12-12T14:19:00.000-05:002007-12-12T14:19:00.000-05:00LKOHere is an article that talks about some of the...LKO<BR/><BR/>Here is an article that talks about some of these important issues. It is a serious and thoughtful attempt to look at the problems between extremism and western democracy. IMHO. <BR/><BR/>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2568533_1,00.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-19442771998446970442007-12-12T14:01:00.000-05:002007-12-12T14:01:00.000-05:00Not a bad point either Lynn, and I do acknowledge ...Not a bad point either Lynn, and I do acknowledge that TODAY "Muslim" extremism (I use quotes because it's extremism cloaked in Islam, imho, not some inherent problem with Islam or (true) Muslims) seems to be a greater problem than "Christian" extremism. I just feel that the focus needs to be on "extremism" not "Muslim" (or "Islam").<BR/><BR/>TODAY, Islam seems to be infected more by extremism, as in the past Christianity suffered more from this ill. In the future, it may be some other religion or culture. That's why, to me, the focus needs to be on the extremism, the fundamentalism, not the particular faith that's been twisted by it.Lord Kitchener's Ownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348376638620272991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-37447190103727480502007-12-12T13:43:00.000-05:002007-12-12T13:43:00.000-05:00Perhaps the "old boys" have run the show for too l...Perhaps the "old boys" have run the show for too long and it's time to elect more women to government? <BR/><BR/>We all know that the old boys still dominate, despite efforts of those same boys to insist they're doing the best they can in that dept. <BR/><BR/>I'm no feminist, but I'm thinking the female voice is being lost in an argument among too many males.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-48320183022987559422007-12-12T13:20:00.000-05:002007-12-12T13:20:00.000-05:00Your points are well taken. I would hope that you ...Your points are well taken. I would hope that you would also consider the world wide rise of the Muslim extremism. Christianity extremism on the other hand has been in decline for quite a while now. <BR/><BR/>This fathers actions is symbolic of a wider issue. The issue is what should Canadians response be to honor killings. Will a strong stand be taken by the justice system or will political correctness take over? Will our tolerance of cultural diversity and fear of racism charges trump sending a strong message that Canada will not tolerate this barbaric practice? <BR/><BR/>I for one, have very little faith that the legal system to send the proper message.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-25003710215017962472007-12-12T12:26:00.000-05:002007-12-12T12:26:00.000-05:00Also, just on the Christian/homosexual comparison,...Also, just on the Christian/homosexual comparison, I wanted to add that a lot of commenters have totally missed the subtelty of the point I was making.<BR/><BR/>I wasn't saying that "people" never seem to decry Christianity when a Christian murders a homosexual or blows up an abortion clinic. Peopl most certainly do (that's what makes it an analogous scenario). What I said was that the SAME people don't make this argument (my exact words: "we don't often hear the <B>same people</B> deploring Christianity, or claiming that 'anglo-saxon culture' is inconsistent with Canadian values" (emphasis added). My point is, one group (mostly "the left") attacks all of Christianity when some "Christian" nutjob beats a gay man to death or bombs a free clinic, while a totally DIFFERENT group (mostly "the right") attacks all of Islam (or even "multiculturalism") when some "Muslim" nutjob does something like what happened in Mississauga. My point is that BOTH arguments are inane, and that it's shocking that one side doesn't see that they're merely mirroring the other with their twisted logic. The smae people who freak out when "Christianity" is blamed are all too willing to blame "Islam" and vice versa, and it's crazy.<BR/><BR/>Jo Bo Green no doubt DOES "hear this all the time" with regards to Christians, but it seems to have totally escaped him that if he's outraged when he hears faulty logic in once instance, perhaps he should avoid shouting it himself in another! In this case, turn-about is NOT fair play.<BR/><BR/>My point is that BOTH the left AND the right are guilty of this twisted logic, and that it makes no more sense in one case than it does in the other.Lord Kitchener's Ownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348376638620272991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-73073303626683718122007-12-12T12:06:00.000-05:002007-12-12T12:06:00.000-05:00I think my comment has been widely misread. I'm C...I think my comment has been widely misread. I'm CERTAINLY not being an apologist for this mad-man. In fact, I would argue that those who are buying his argument that he did this for "religious reasons" are doing more to excuse his actions than I. This man did this for INSANE reasons, which he'll no doubt choose to pass off as "religious duty", but that doesn't mean we need to all get sucked in by his obviously twisted logic. To buy that argument, or to parrot it, is to excuse (to some degree) this mad-man's actions. To say that he did this because of "religion" is to lessen his responsibility for this abomination, and diffuse responsibility for this act across an entire faith (or, perhaps even ALL faiths and cultures, if one chooses to blame "multiculturalism"). Certainly this mad-man seems to believe that his act of murder had some religious basis, but there's no reason for us to acquiese to that insane twisting of a religion thousands of Canadians practice honourably and peacefully. <BR/><BR/>What I'm saying is that it's EQUALLY wrong to attack "Christianity" when some nutjob kills a gay man for "religious reasons", or to blame "white people" when some nutjob goes on a racist killing spree, as it is to blame "Islam" (let alone "multiculturalism") when some nutjob kills his daughter for "religious reasons". Just because people SAY they do things in the name of their religion or culture doesn't make it true. Just because some Muslims are nutjobs (and some Christians are nutjobs, and some Jews...) isn't an indictment of these religions, it's an indictment of nutjobs.<BR/><BR/>This man was no more following Islam when he killed his daughter than a Christian is following Christ when he blows up an abortion clinic, or kills a homosexual. The problem is not religion, or culture, it is people who will abuse and twist religion and culture to excuse murder. Multiculturalism is about an openess to the culture and faith of many different groups, not about condoning or apologizing for fanaticism disguised as "faith" or "culture". Extremism and fanaticism are the enemies here, not tolerance and faith. Attack the crazies who cloak their insanity in the disguise of faith, by all means. But attacking a religion, or a system meant to be open to faiths and cultures the world over seems a horrible response to the act of a mad man to me.Lord Kitchener's Ownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348376638620272991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-4779111925305195632007-12-12T10:32:00.000-05:002007-12-12T10:32:00.000-05:00So should we start talking about all the Christian...<I>So should we start talking about all the Christian crazies that go on murdering sprees?</I><BR/><BR/>Please, let's - because there's a LOT of Christian crazies.<BR/><BR/><BR/>How come no one blinks when I say, "Man, the Catholic Church sure is awful," but everyone gets in a tizzy when I say the same about Islam? Islam isn't a baby, it can take its hard knocks as much as any "white", "Western" version.Jacques Beau Verthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16450947780950412676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-84652925179219030602007-12-12T10:27:00.000-05:002007-12-12T10:27:00.000-05:00If a Christian kills a homosexual, or a whoite guy...<I>If a Christian kills a homosexual, or a whoite guy beats his daughter for dating a black guy, we don't often hear the same people deploring Christianity, or claiming that "anglo-saxon cluture" is inconsistent with Canadian values.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm afraid you're full of shit on this one, LKO - because I hear that often. More in America than Canada, but it's a very common meme.<BR/><BR/>I'm not religious personally and am not personally offended by those statements. I'm just saying, they're made frequently, and you're wrong. <BR/><BR/>You're also wrong about his motivation: This man killed his daughter for religious reasons, and his religion carries some burden of blame.Jacques Beau Verthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16450947780950412676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-27210242358198078132007-12-12T07:30:00.000-05:002007-12-12T07:30:00.000-05:00I think treating this as a "Muslim" crime does a d...<I>I think treating this as a "Muslim" crime does a disservice not only to Islam, but to us all.</I><BR/>You make a saner point but it seems that the Connies on this site would like to make it about Muslims.<BR/>It's amazing all the bigots you attract Joanne.<BR/><BR/>So should we start talking about all the Christian crazies that go on murdering sprees? Of course that will somehow be different, right? I love the shrieking half-wits here....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-80379315360075364182007-12-11T21:48:00.000-05:002007-12-11T21:48:00.000-05:00IT'S WRONG TO KILL YOUR CHILDREN In CANADA!!!No ma...IT'S WRONG TO KILL YOUR CHILDREN In CANADA!!!<BR/><BR/>No matter the culture, no matter the religion. <BR/><BR/>If we don't trust a judiciary or gov't to send this message we're pretty much a sad excuse for a country.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-46415631821704493422007-12-11T21:07:00.000-05:002007-12-11T21:07:00.000-05:00Yes, Neil. It's very sad. Must be so difficult for...Yes, Neil. It's very sad. Must be so difficult for her young friends.<BR/><BR/>Interesting comments <A HREF="http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_17599.aspx" REL="nofollow">here</A>. A whole range of opinions.Joanne (True Blue)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17445664997050698154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-82535738944219474262007-12-11T20:52:00.000-05:002007-12-11T20:52:00.000-05:00This is so sad. I have a sixteen year old daughte...This is so sad. I have a sixteen year old daughter in grade eleven and high school is her life. This poor Pakistani teen just wanted to fit in. Isn't that what immigrant families are supposed to do??<BR/>I'm going to have a few stiff drinks, do a crossword puzzle or two and listen to Christmas music on iTunes.<BR/>NeilDAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-523161007788266022007-12-11T20:31:00.000-05:002007-12-11T20:31:00.000-05:00Where does rhe Multiculturalism act endorse honor ...<I>Where does rhe Multiculturalism act endorse honor killings?</I><BR/><BR/>Where did I say it did?Joanne (True Blue)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17445664997050698154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-28224817737223148882007-12-11T20:29:00.000-05:002007-12-11T20:29:00.000-05:00Where is Irene Mathyssen and her outrage on the of...Where is Irene Mathyssen and her outrage on the of abuse of women? Hmmm???<BR/><BR/>It scares me to think that perhaps its only 'white' women that are entitled to defense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-55034346347311531442007-12-11T20:08:00.000-05:002007-12-11T20:08:00.000-05:00Joanne,Where does rhe Multiculturalism act endorse...Joanne,<BR/><BR/>Where does rhe Multiculturalism act endorse honor killings?bigcitylibhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05081538803991095825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-66413141356297742392007-12-11T20:07:00.000-05:002007-12-11T20:07:00.000-05:00Robert Latimer committed the crime of murder and w...Robert Latimer committed the crime of murder and was given a sentence set out by law. Latimer's case also had activists groups allowed to speak in his court case.<BR/><BR/> It bothers me not one group has stepped up involving this girls case and denounced such an absolutely deporable crime. Watch for politicians to tippy-toe around it with non-answers. From what is being reported this is clearly first-degree murder. The girls killing was pre-meditated by the fact she was lured home.<BR/><BR/> I heard someone from the Canadian Muslim Congress on Adler today (Tarek?) saying there are about 5000 honor killings in pakistan every year, and they rarely result in charges.<BR/><BR/>paulsstuffAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com