Friday, December 28, 2007

If Tory stays, Dalton may be 'Premier for life'

Arthur Weinreb of CFP nails it - John Tory: Why is it even a question? (H/T Draftaleader.com):

..Since the NDP do not have much chance of taking power and the Tories don’t seem to really want it, perhaps we could just designate Dalton “Premier for Life”. And the money that would be saved from future elections could be used to change more logos and start a war against Big Macs and other fast foods...

Ouch!

* * * *
Saturday Update: More from Draftaleader - Tory determined to stay on as province's Conservative leader.

I see this as one more example of John Tory stubbornly doing what he wants to do, rather than what is best for the party - and Ontario.


67 comments:

Raphael Alexander said...

I disagree. That blog is hopelessly anti-John Tory partisan, even while pointing out that more than half of respondents don't want Tory to go. I will stay the course with John Tory. He's a good man, a good leader, and he will win if he stays on.

Anonymous said...

I agree with the post above me, Tory is good for the gays, he leads them well and he will continue to win their hearts. But we want a conservative premier and Tory won't get there. (real conservative)

Anonymous said...

Tory may be a nice guy, but he does not cut the mustard.

Ruth said...

I recall that everyone said that Stephen Harper would never be Prime Minister either. We had one summer with half the party wanting him to step down. Good guys do finish first sometimes.

lee said...

If Tory goes, Dalton may still be premier for life.
Ontario Conservatives, it seems, cant get together to elect anyone.
I doubt that theres any candidate the meets all of your requirements.
Ontario Conservatives failed John Tory, the Party, and the citizens of Ontario.
You failed to do your homework, you allowed a single issue of no great import to dominate.
YOU failed, not John Tory.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Ontario Conservatives failed John Tory, the Party, and the citizens of Ontario. You failed to do your homework, you allowed a single issue of no great import to dominate.
YOU failed, not John Tory.


I'll agree with that to a point. I know for a fact that many Conservatives either didn't vote or voted for a different party because of the FBF issue.

John Tory may indeed be a nice guy, but his fatal flaw is hubris.

He thought he could ram through his unpopular policy in spite of protests from within his own party. He also presumed he could take a riding from one of the Liberal's most popular Ministers.

Now he has to pay for his stubborn pride by watching from the gallery.

Can he change? Who knows?

But he has already been labelled as the 'Public-education destroyer' by the likes of Warren Kinsella, so that label would be easily resurrected in the next election. For the record, I'm in favour of FBF, but Kinsella would use that ammunition again; even if Tory promised not to reopen the debate.

We need a Warren Kinsella for the PC party in Ontario.

Ruth said...

I would hope we were above all the slander that came from Warren before the last election.
My Grandmother always told me "if I didn't have something nice to say about someone, don't say anything at all".

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Ruth, I agree that his tactics were disgusting, but look who's in charge now.

Unfortunately, being nice doesn't always work in politics. But Warren's strategy is to make the leader look like a 'nice guy' and leave the dirty work to his attack dogs (eg. Smitherman).

We need a strong attack dog. Tim Hukak does his part, but there should be someone orchestrating it without making the huge mistake that was done about Chretien's face (which Tory was involved with if memory serves me correctly).

Read Kinsella's books. Get them from the library though. No need to fund his retirement plan.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

s/b Hudak.

Anonymous said...

I disagree raphael. Tory has branded himself. He proved to prefer the advice of his paid help than he did long time supporters and grassroot folks who, when they supported Mike Harris didn't ever feel like they had be apologize for their decision or their vote.

Sorry, but unless John Tory is planning on taking a decisive turn to the right and raise enough policy planks to help the PC stand out from the Liberals instead of blending in, we have a shot.

Nothing short of a housecleaning is in order for the Ontario PC is they want to win the election and my vote.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Tory has branded himself. He proved to prefer the advice of his paid help than he did long time supporters and grassroot folks who, when they supported Mike Harris didn't ever feel like they had be apologize for their decision or their vote.

Exactly.

Why vote for Liberal-lite when you can have the real thing?

True conservative voters are disenfranchised in Ontario right now.

And some of us actually don't believe that Toronto is the centre of the universe.

Kingston said...

All of this is fine and good Joanne, here is the problem, name one person who is willing to step up and take his place with any kind of name recognition right now, I have heard Peter Van Loan name floated and well he is well known it is for a lot of the wrong reason outside of the Tory club. he is seen as an attack dog not the leader of a party. I think the the correct think to do is get through the convention leave John in place and start grooming the successor right away. We can always call another leadership review in a two years. It not like we have to panic right now, the Libs have a majority and we know the next election is not until 2011. In other words people stops panicking, sit back, have a look at four years down the road, not today, today is over.

Kingston said...

P.S. Joanne, your right I am reading the War Room right now, it surprisingly is a very good read, easy to understand and full of lots of excellent information on how campaigns really work. Sure there is a lot of stuff in there that comes across as low and dirty, but we have to remember politics is a big boy and girl game, its not your minor hockey league, I know someone in the comments said it and I agree the CPC and the Ontario Tories need someone like WK who is not afraid of being inventive and nasty when it is required.

Raphael Alexander said...

I see this as one more example of John Tory stubbornly doing what he wants to do, rather than what is best for the party - and Ontario.

God forbid a man take the support of his party as an indication to stay on! Joanne, your memory fails you. The Libs crucified McGuinty after he lost his first time around. Now the OPC's are crying over Tory just because he lost once, and referring hyperbolically to McGuinty as Premier for life.

paulsstuff said...

while I agree that John Tory is a fine man with impeccable integrity, this does not translate into votes sadly.

Polls done over the year leading up to the election showed a virtual tie, with a Liberal/Conservative minority the most likely result. If Tory really felt so strongly about the faith-based funding issue, he should have put forth a bill AFTER the election, putting the onus on MPP's of all parties to show their true colors during a vote on the bill.

Tory's biggest mistake, and the #1 reason why many, including me demand he step down, is the complete incompetence in which he chose and continued to run the campaign.He had more Louisville Slugger bats to beat McGuinty with during the campaign than the Blue Jays use in a full season, yet chose FBF as his main plank? Here's an idea John. Most Ontarian's are still pissed about the "health tax" and the preceding lie before it. Thousands of Ontarian's have lost jobs in manufacturing during McGuinty's reign. How's McGuinty doing on the enviroment? Coal-fired plants John?Lotto-Gate John? A million for the Onatrio Cricket Club John? Millions without a family doctor John? Pick a broken promise John.

So what do we end up with? 4 more years of broken promises, as manufacturing jobs continue to erode, waiting lists for surgery maintaining the status quo, and having to look at that Norman Bates grin for 4 more years.Thanks John, now it's time for you to go.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

I think the the correct think to do is get through the convention leave John in place and start grooming the successor right away. We can always call another leadership review in a two years.

Kingston, I could live with that, but why delay the inevitable.?

Joanne, your memory fails you. The Libs crucified McGuinty after he lost his first time around.

Warren Kinsella is the reason why Dalton has won two mandates. McGuinty himself is a liability.

We need a Warren Kinsella whether Tory stays on or not.

But Tory is branded now. There is no way on earth he will win an election unless Kinsella retires.

Kingston said...

My point is there is no one great person to take his place right now. We will end up with a compromise leader, we need a strong leader who the public recognizes and we do not have the person in the wings right now Joanne. We need to find that person, groom that person out of the spotlight, and introduce him to the voters in our way and in our time. We have the time, we should use it to our best advantage. We could have God himself as our leader right now and four the next four years it means diddly squat. I agree that JT is branded, we are going to live with that anyway, lets not blow this, lets find the right person.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

I agree that JT is branded, we are going to live with that anyway, lets not blow this, lets find the right person.

Kingston, I see what you're getting at. I guess I was thinking of the February convention being the only chance for change, but you're suggesting it could still happen even if Tory was kept on in the short term.

Then take our time finding the right charismatic leader and hopefully a politically-savvy strategist...

Yes, that is starting to make some sense.

Swift said...

It shouldn't make any sense Joanne. Unless you are a John Tory supporter. Check out Section 24 of the party constitution.

Mary said...

YOU failed, not John Tory.

How insulting!

I take great offense to that. For three months, I hit the streets everyday canvassing. Everyday! I took two weeks off of work (the last two weeks of the campaign) to help elect my local candidate. We were defeated. Don't you date tell me that I failed.

Do you know what I heard at nearly every door I knocked on? "I can't support Tory" or "I can't support faith based funding".

Who's fault was faith based funding? Tory's.

Once Tory came in, we lost our voice in crafting policy. Policy creation became the sole realm of Tory and his yes-men. We should have had an opportunity to accept or reject the faith based issue before the election, amongst the rest of the platform. Tory denied us that chance. As such, he has to fall on the knife.

You're a typical typical John Tory supporter, blame the grass roots, blame the voters, blame the party, but *god forbid* don't put the blame where it really lies: at John Tory's feet.

Give your head a shake. Tory has to go!

Mary said...

Kingston,

If we wait, John Tory will try to hold onto power longer. He won't go quietly, as I'm sure you've already seen. We have to dump him now. We can allow a year long or two year leadership race, if we like. Bob Runciman can handle our business at Queen's Park, but we can't wait to get rid of John Tory. We have one chance and that is the leadership review. There will not be another one before the next election, as per the constitution.

Do you really think that if John Tory wins the approval of the membership, even by 50% that he will step down in a year or two. No way. If he gets what he perceives as a positive mandate, he's going to lead us into another election. It can't happen. He has to go now.

Its now or never. Or, in another way: its now or a three-term McGuinty government.

Lee said...

Well, Mary, I seem to have upset you. Im sorry about that. When i said YOU FAILED, i was of course meaning the Conservatives of Ontario collectively.
Heres the question:
What was the percentage of eligible voters that voted? and
How many of those who sat on their hands were conservatives?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Check out Section 24 of the party constitution.

Not having that at my fingertips, Swift, could you please enlighten me? Thanks. BTW, I am not a party member, for what it's worth.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

We have one chance and that is the leadership review. There will not be another one before the next election, as per the constitution.

Ah, maybe that is what Swift was getting at. Thanks for that tidbit, Mary.

O.K. I'm back to the Dump Tory side. (I know. I'm fickle.)

Ryan R said...

John Tory can't win general elections. In fact, he tends to butcher them. I wonder how many people here are aware of his role in the Kim Cambell disaster of 1993 on the federal scene?

Two of the absolute worst campaigns in Tory (federal or provincial) history. That tells me that the guy simply doesn't do politics well. He might have made a good Premier, but it's a moot point if he can't get himself and his party elected.

The Ontario provincial PCs should start grooming a successor to take Tory before the next provincial election. Now, Tory can stay on for a year or two certainly - but there's no way he should get a chance to utterly botch up yet another election.

paulsstuff said...

"Well, Mary, I seem to have upset you. Im sorry about that. When i said YOU FAILED, i was of course meaning the Conservatives of Ontario collectively.
Heres the question:
What was the percentage of eligible voters that voted? and
How many of those who sat on their hands were conservatives?"

And the reason those voters never showed up and sat on their hands was John Tory and the campaign he ran. Liberal supporters will vote Liberal no matter what, look at post Adscam elections. Who in their right mind votes for a party that was found to and actually admits to illegal kickbacks? You at least need to send them a strong message, something PC supporters did in the 1993 election.

Like I stated earlier, Tory had a shed full of ammunition to throw at Mcguinty and the
liberal's, and instead locked the door, stood inside, and lit the fuse, choosing to blow himself up. I'm sure if someone gave him the winning lottery numbers for tonights draw one of his "team" would change them because they know better.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

I wonder how many people here are aware of his role in the Kim Cambell disaster of 1993 on the federal scene?

All of which is well documented in Kinsella's books.

John Tory has displayed bad judgment too many times to warrant further trust and support.

I'm sure he is a good man, and I know he is very generous, but that just doesn't cut it as a leader.

Swift said...

The Ontario and Federal constitutions are on their websites. And remember the AGW house of cards collapses in 2008. It's going to be a Happy New Year.

Möbius said...

John Tory lost an election he should have one easily. We get to suffer for it.

He is politically colour-blind, and should be gone, poste-haste.

Möbius said...

All of this is fine and good Joanne, here is the problem, name one person who is willing to step up and take his place with any kind of name recognition right now,

Well, thankfully to Tory, we've got at least 4-5 fricken YEARS! of Lib rule left to find someone within the party. Do you think it can't be done within that time period?

Anonymous said...

I sat on my hands. A long-time conservative who's also volunteered time, effort and responded to requests for policy submissions etc. when asked.

I felt used by the Tory team.

No other word for it.

As someone above stated no conservative should ever feel slighted for having voted for a Mike Harris, or a Ernie Eves.
No leader that dismisses either the red Tory or the ultra blue Tory can win the province.

We need a leader that isn't afraid to encompass the good that each party hue has contributed historically and most recently.

We need to start breaking down the sides of the Bill Davis tories and the Harris tories and be stronger together because of it.

Kingston - I think Peter VanLoan is playing his role very effectively at the moment, and would make a really good Ontario PC leader.

I had heard a rumour once that Guy Giorno might take a stab at candidacy. Or, how about a very frustrated yet, popular current Toronto City Councillor?

Kingston said...

Moebus, Read my post, exactly we have lots of time, no need to panic, I would not be adversed to JT remaining leader for another two years until a new leader is found and groomed. I am sure that could be worked out with JT and the Party. Anoy, I too agree that PVL is very effective in his role, the problem with his role it is extremely hard to shake the reputation of attack dog that comes with it, back to the calm, cool, reasonable, thoughtful leader that people look for in an election campaign. The one thing I think the LPC is right on about PMSH is he should let the rest of the cabinet attack more vice just himself, PVL and John Baird.

Anonymous said...

Dalton McGuinty did NOT win the election. John Tory lost it.

There was no strategy demonstrated by either McGuinty or Tory if you really think about it.

McGuinty towed Kinsella's line and never waivered or had to answer to critics, because the main rival, John Tory (who believed his team of advisors and who were wrongly advised by them re: the lengths that the teacher unions and their puppet organization would go to to fight school choice based on any religion other than Catholic. Tory never even once was able to muster the bias in McGuinty's own stance on the matter.

we were whitewashed as a province, but it had nothing to do with Dalton McGuinty, or John Tory.

This was all Kinsella, and you've got to believe that Kinsella's got stars in his eyes and will assist in Dalton into the federal scene.

I also believe that Dalton will move to federal politics to escape the provincial mess that's brewing.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

And remember the AGW house of cards collapses in 2008.

Swift loves leaving these cryptic messages.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Anon at 09:07:00 AM EST:

I agree with everything you said. I did shiver though at the thought of Kinsella being the puppeteer at the Federal level.

Mary said...

When i said YOU FAILED, i was of course meaning the Conservatives of Ontario collectively.

I understand that but you're putting the blame where it doesn't belong. The party didn't fail. John Tory failed. HE shut us out of the policy making. HE surrounded himself with a pack of yes-men who couldn't run a city council campaign, let along a provincial campaign. HE is responsible for the campaign gaffes. HE is responsible to the party for this defeat. HE even said so himself.

So, why is Tory now trying to stay on. Paul Martin quit when he lost and he only let his opponent have a minority government. Ernie Eves stepped down when he lost.

How many of those who sat on their hands were conservatives?

Too many. That's the problem and that's John Tory's fault.

Too many Tories just sat on their hands, put their feet up and watched the results roll in on their TV screens. Tory gave them no reason to vote Conservative.

If Tory had done the right thing and put that horrid faith based funding idea on to the floor of a policy convention the membership would have shot it down. instead he put his faith in pollsters and yes-men who surely nodded their heads, noting that, "gee John, this'll get us some ethnic votes for sure".

This was John Torys election to lose. He should have stepped up the plate and unloaded the four years of ripe ammo that McGuinty gave him. Tax hikes, spending scandals, RCMP investigations...the list goes on. McGuinty practically begged Tory to take his job and Tory still couldn't get it done.

Unless we want McGuinty and his corrupt clan hanging around Queen's Park for two more terms, stinking up the place, we have to get a leader in place who will put them out of their misery. That person is not Tory.

When it comes time for us to decide Tory's fate, we have to vote YES to a leadership review.

Mary said...

Oh, and for those thinking that there is no one to take the reigns once we show Tory the door, think again.

Tim Hudak
Elizabeth Witmer
John Snobelin
Bob Runcimen
Christine Elliot
Jim Flaherty
Peter Van Loan

This party has talent! Never forget that.

The organizing has already begun. WE HAVE OPTIONS!!!!

Ryan R said...

I think that Jim Flaherty would make a good Ontario PC leader. He's gaining national recognition as current Federal Finance Minister, and comes across to me as a naturally affable and likeable guy.

Also, given how young Prime Minister Stephen Harper is for a Prime Minister, Flaherty could be in for a very long wait indeed if he ever wants to become Prime Minister.

Anonymous said...

sorry Mary - no one from the Tory past will do. It must be a fresh face not a hold-over from Harris, Eves or Tory.

VanLoan....yep.
Chong....yep.

We need new young blood.

Kingston said...

Wow Mary, This is a conversation between like minded people who are having a friendly disagreement about how to proceed. Please remember that as we discuss this subject. I viewed your list with interest of possible replacements for the the leader. I like the idea of JF but do you think he might have to much baggage. No matter how much we think that Harris and Eves did what had to be done, a lot of our fellow citizens do not agree with our theories. The Libs have an excellent political machine and they have already molded that image, they would jump for joy if JF was to run for leader and more then likely help have him win the same way the CPC would of loved Bob Rae to win the Fed Liberal Leadership. Anyway, back to the topic. With all sincerity, It is very obvious that your extremely angry with JT and his totally screw up of this campaign, the problem with politics is you can never, ever ever ever make a decision based on emotions. As I have stated, we have time, if we need to, lets postpone the leadership review for a year and let reasoned non-passioned thought take us where we need to go.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Michael Chong would be absolutely perfect.

Kingston said...

Wow, He never even occurred to me Joanne. A perfect example of someone who has some name the public knows, no baggage and could be easily groomed to be the leader. He also has easily shown he is his own man by his principled resignation of his cabinet seat over the Quebec Nation vote. That would play extremely well to the soft left portion of the voters.

Anonymous said...

Kingston said that the Liberals have a great machine going.

For the moment,but that hasn't always been the case provincially.

Where Kinsella goes so too does the Liberal success.

I really like Flaherty but I'd rather see a federal battle between Flaherty and McGuinty when McGuinty moves federally.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

He also has easily shown he is his own man by his principled resignation of his cabinet seat over the Quebec Nation vote. That would play extremely well to the soft left portion of the voters.

Yes, and he is likely looking for a challenge - a man with tremendous talent who is wasting his time as a mere backbencher.

I met him at a backyard fundraiser when he was still a Minister.

A real gentleman. Bright, young and may appeal to the ethnic vote.

A winner.

Mary said...

As I have stated, we have time, if we need to, lets postpone the leadership review for a year and let reasoned non-passioned thought take us where we need to go.

The constitution sets out a timeline for a leadership review. It cant be pushed back. It's now or never.

As far as replacements go, JF has changed his image since he's been Finance Minister. He's not the "lock up the poor, toss welfare mothers out on the streets" monster the Liberals tried to portray him as. Plus, as Finance Minister, JF has made the right connections in the Business Community to increase the party's fundraising. With JF, we have someone who is ready to govern, has the experience and the ability to fill up the coffers. He's perfect.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

O.K. So we have two perfect candidates.

Dump Tory.

Ruth said...

Can you honestly see anyone moving from the Federal to Provincial politics and give up their perks in Ottawa. Question Period is at least exciting in Ottawa.

Swift said...

I have another suggestion: Gary Goodyear. I would support either Gary or Micheal over Jim. Just a few days left till 2008, cool dude.

Anonymous said...

Gary Goodyear is a bum. It has to be Jim Flaherty. He's the only one with the necessary experience.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Gary Goodyear is a bum.

Gary Goodyear is a great guy.

But in my opinion he needs a bit more experience.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

On the other hand, I have personally witnessed a showdown between Gary Goodyear and George Smitherman. Let me tell you, it was a beautiful thing.

Yes, Gary is a possibility, now that I think about it...

Swift said...

Gary vs George? A tape of that could be a million seller!

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Gary vs George?

Oh yeah. Nose to nose. Gary can stand up to George any day of the week.

It is cemented in my memory.

Anonymous said...

I'm one of Goodyear's constituents and trust me, the guy is a bum. He's not helpful at all. His constit office closes at 1:30 in teh afternoon everyday. He's not accessible. He's never around town. He flies in from Ottawa for photo ops and that's about it. I vote for him to keep Harper in power, but thats where my support ends. I would have a very hard time if he were leader of the PC party. Jim Flaherty is the guy. Goodyear's never even been in cabinet. What credentials does he have? He's a chiropractor for god's sakes.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Here's the man.

Anonymous said...

I really like Jim Flaherty...always have.

He would be an excellent choice for the PCs.

The only thing is that he's more openly supportive of school choice,charters, vouchers etc. than Tory ever has been. Kinsella can still drive that wedge. Albeit the difference is that Flaherty knows how to stickhandle the bs...Tory didn't.

What of Chris Hodgson(s)? What's he doing these days?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

The only thing is that he's more openly supportive of school choice,charters, vouchers etc. than Tory ever has been. Kinsella can still drive that wedge.

The issue isn't dead. However, it shouldn't be discussed in the heat of an election. The fact is that we still discriminate in Ontario along religious lines with regards to education funding.

Yes, I think Flaherty could handle Kinsella.

Chris Hodgson? Who's that? (Not being facetious here.)

Anonymous said...

You're kidding, right Joanne?

Chris Hodgson was widely touted to be the next Mike Harris. I believe he was Minister of Muncipal Affairs and Housing at one point, I think MPP from the Peterborough area?

Then, there's John Snobelen.

Man, I'd like to see him get another shot.

Hey, have you ever counted up the number of Liberal MPPs who have come up through either school boards or teaching....way more than I thought. Upwards of 20. Isn't that some sort of a record?

Just found it interesting when reading some bios. to know that maybe our gov't business is in the hands of former school board types.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

You're kidding, right Joanne?

The name sounded familiar, but to be honest, I've only become interested in provincial politics within the last few years. So I appreciate when readers such as yourself enlighten me. That is one of the reasons why I have this blog.

Anonymous said...

Cherniak's bar must be low today.
Dalton McGuinty Man of the Year for 2007!!!

I think we found the lead lemming in Ontario.

What exactly did he do to deserve this?

Heck, I'd pick Kinsella over McGuinty any day.

True Blue said...

John Tory deserves a second chance. He’s not the first leader who failed to deliver as hoped; nor will he be the last.

For the benefit of all of those who have conveniently forgotten their recent political history, here’s a little reality check on the Harris and Harper records.

In 1990, Mike Harris won just 20 out of 130 seats, saw the party’s percentage of the popular vote go down, and helped create the conditions that elected Bob Rae. But he got a second chance and went on to win 2 majority governments. In 2004, Harper was widely considered to have done worse than expected and in 2006 he won only 40 out of 106 Ontario seats even with the huge lift that Gommery had given them. Not a stellar result under the circumstances, yet no one is talking about dumping Harper.

I’m not trying to trash either Leader. Politics is tough and there are no sure things. But just as Harris and Harper got second chances, a leader who works as hard as John Tory does and who accomplishes as much as he has for the party, deserves a second chance.

Faith-based funding was a mistake – a huge one as it turned out. But Tory deserves to be judged on more. He brought discipline and focus to the Caucus giving them a more effective voice than their numbers would warrant. He attracted an outstanding team of candidates – fresh faces that added both breadth and depth to the party. He was largely responsible for raising the 10-million needed to pay off the debt and for giving the banks the confidence to extend a line of credit for the campaign. He oversaw a very solid policy platform that included a wide range of – wait for it – conservative initiatives. And he worked his ass off.

The alternatives are not all that encouraging. Let’s remember that Flaherty and Klees raised the issue of alternative education funding in the first place. Gary Goodyear – most people in the party, never mind the electorate, wouldn’t know him if they fell over him. If his lack of loyalty and discretion don’t make Snobelen ineligible then his weapons charges should. Witmer, VanLoan, Elliott, Hudak, Chong all have their attributes, but not the juice to be Premier.

Tory says he learned hard lessons from the 2007 campaign. He’s earned the right to be allowed to put those lessons to work. With everything else he brings to the leadership, the party would be smart to stick with him and start working to win with him in 2011.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

I knew I should have taken out a copyright on "True Blue"!

Joanne (True Blue) said...

True Blue, I hear what you're saying, but I would need evidence that he has truly learned his lesson and is willing to listen to the grassroots.

Then perhaps I could be swayed.

But that still wouldn't speak to the branding of the FBF nightmare which Kinsella would only too gladly remind the electorate of, if given the opportunity.

Anonymous said...

If you think we should give Mr. Tory another chance he's going to have to demonstrate to me just how he is going to reconnect with the Harris support and Harris vote he so eager dismissed last time.

He hasn't done so that I can tell.

If he can't or will not do this, then we need someone who can/will.

Oh, and I think anyone who's been around for a while remembers that neither Harris or Harper were successful their first time around, but they also didn't fall as flat on their faces, as did JT.

Joanne's right too, in that Kinsella know too well the buttons to push with John Tory...and he'll do it again.

With Klees and Flaherty and school choice, their approach was no where close to what Tory's was. Klees and Flaherty were totally supportive of supporting the rights of all parents who choose outside of the system...not just religious based choice.

Anonymous said...

Wrong lee.It was not the PC who 'allowed' the single issue to distract from McGuinty's poor campaign. The media cooked it, stirred it, and spiced every little article with it.McGuinty was conveniently hiding and just happenned to get 'caught' during one of his 'cozy' photo ops. Did McGuinty's rude behaviour to the Cancer patient get any press? I'll answer that myself..
No because Kinsella and the media pulled all the strings.
Who arranged for McGuinty to hide and not discuss lies, broken promises and health care?
Tory's biggest mistake...he was to distracted to see what was going on from the electorate POV.

Möbius said...

If Tory had done the right thing and put that horrid faith based funding idea on to the floor of a policy convention the membership would have shot it down. instead he put his faith in pollsters and yes-men who surely nodded their heads, noting that, "gee John, this'll get us some ethnic votes for sure".

Good Lord, mary, you are the most intelligent poster I've ever met, because we agree on almost everything.

It's time to change the Ont PC party leadership. Tory messed up completely, an election he was sure to win.

Möbius said...

John Tory deserves a second chance. He’s not the first leader who failed to deliver as hoped; nor will he be the last.

Some leaders make little mistakes, and lose, and some just hand the keys to the winner. JT has shown he has absolutely no political sense at all. The last election was a lock for the PC's, barring any really stupid policies. Guess what we got?