If the Liberal-Lovin' Lemmings of Ontario want four more years of lies, obfuscation, 'health' taxes, hidden taxes, half-truths, cover-ups, crime and lawlessness, union-pandering, discriminatory education funding with questionable results, banning everything under the sun, long waits for medical attention, back-door funding, never-ending native stand-offs and broken promises - then go for it.
Just don't complain. Not one of you.
You don't have the right.
Not for the next four years.
* * * *
Photo explanation here. But the ones not paying attention should have been lemmings; not swans.
* * * *
Update: As Sandy says here, Ontario is already funding a faith-based school and no, I'm not referring to the Catholic system.
The National Post has an article today called "Mennonite school used against Liberals". But Education Minister Kathleen Wynne sees Eden High as an "anomaly":
So, any other exceptions to the unbending rule, Ms. Wynne?
The National Post has an article today called "Mennonite school used against Liberals". But Education Minister Kathleen Wynne sees Eden High as an "anomaly":
Kathleen Wynne, the Liberal Education Minister, yesterday described Eden High as "an anomaly" and said its existence does not justify the fundamental changes that Mr. Tory is proposing.
"There is a difference between a single school that is in the system and making a systemic change across the province that would introduce a very different way of educating kids," she said, adding, "I don't see it as a contradiction."
So, any other exceptions to the unbending rule, Ms. Wynne?
* * * *
Sunday not-so-anomalous update:
Apparently, yes. There are more exceptions. True Blue Ontario notes them here. (We talking Eden, The Protestant Separate School Board of Penetanguishene and F.W. Begely in Windsor now). Any other anomalies, Minister Wynne?
True Blue (great name there) rightly asks:
Lorrie Goldstein's column this morning - Heading for a Hangover - addresses the irony and bigotry of the Liberal position:
Why can't Ontario voters see what's going on here?
Angelo Persichilli makes a good point here:
I've been saying that for weeks now. Are you listening, John Tory?
Oh-oh! Another anomoly!!! - Rockway Mennonite Collegiate. (H/T to 'Anonymous' in comments.)
Good article here by John Vanasselt, who is director of communications for the Ontario Alliance of Christian Schools.
Or how about this one from NOW, May 2001 where McGuinty and company flip-flop all over funding for religious schools?
Apparently, yes. There are more exceptions. True Blue Ontario notes them here. (We talking Eden, The Protestant Separate School Board of Penetanguishene and F.W. Begely in Windsor now). Any other anomalies, Minister Wynne?
True Blue (great name there) rightly asks:
The question remains, why do some get choice, while others do not? There needs to be an open and honest discussion and debate on alternative or faith based funding in the Province of Ontario.(TBO has posted a new link to this Windsor Star article.)
Lorrie Goldstein's column this morning - Heading for a Hangover - addresses the irony and bigotry of the Liberal position:
...On the other side, the Liberals -- the self-described party of tolerance -- have used this issue to pander to Islamophobia and other forms of bigotry in an attempt to scare enough people into voting Liberal to secure a majority government.
According to them, the fact five other provinces fund multi-faith schools in some way is not possible in Ontario. Here, they argue, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and Sikh schools will get public funding and the next thing you know, it'll be religious cults worshipping the Great Hairy Muffin.
And always, just below the visible surface of the Liberals' position, there's the coded appeal to bigotry in the post 9/11 era -- that it's those Muslim schools that really need to be watched...
Why can't Ontario voters see what's going on here?
Angelo Persichilli makes a good point here:
Tory has the wrong position if he wants to become premier, but his integrity and leadership have to be appreciated. He could keep defending his position but, being an important decision for MPPs too, he might allow his members to vote according to their conscience. That wouldn't be a compromise but a fair way to address an issue that involves the conscience of all the people involved.
I've been saying that for weeks now. Are you listening, John Tory?
Oh-oh! Another anomoly!!! - Rockway Mennonite Collegiate. (H/T to 'Anonymous' in comments.)
Good article here by John Vanasselt, who is director of communications for the Ontario Alliance of Christian Schools.
Or how about this one from NOW, May 2001 where McGuinty and company flip-flop all over funding for religious schools?
Right in Niagara - Liberal Greg Sorbara has amnesia about Eden High School.
117 comments:
Ontario is in decline. They've hit the point where a critical mass of voters prefer to live in a perpetual nanny state.
It's the beginning of the end. The conservative West is on the rise, the Liberal Ontario is in deep decline.
And it will perpetuate.
Those who wish to live in a vibrant free market economy will move out west, those who are predisposed to have the government "take care of them" (and in the process draining rather than adding to the local ecomony), will go to Ontario.
Sad, but true.
Come out West Joanne. Leave the rotting socialist landscape for greener pastures.
Come out West Joanne. Leave the rotting socialist landscape for greener pastures.
Sounds tempting. And once we have that pesticide ban in place, you're right - our lawns will be brown and blighted. Somehow farms and golf courses will be allowed to continue to use pesticides. Bizarre.
Dear Joanne,
They all lie.
Sad, but true.
John Tory abandoned traditional conservatives before they abandoned him.
The conservatives should pick a better leader next time like Frank Klees.
L.O. & Dante - True and true.
I need a break. This is getting depressing.
This makes me sad Joanne. Unfortunately John Tory does not seem to be the right leader for the time. Liberal lying and bribery seems to still work in Ontario.
You have fought a noble battle, Joanne.
Yep, its time to give up.
The people of Ontario will get the government they deserve.
I just spent some time finding out exactly what Torys POLICY was initially.
Heres what i found out:
1) He is for FB funding but,
2) He recognized there was not enough support (45%) among the electorate, so
3)He appointed Bill Davis to chair a commission to examine the issue, and
4) Make recommedations, with a view to possibly
5) starting a couple of pilot projects by 2010
Now here you have an emminently sensible plan that would have either made some baby steps in the direction of funding for private schools, or possibly rejected the idea as unworkable or unpalatable.
There would have been 3 years to get this together.
It appears that the voters of Ontario have been once again victims of their own mental laziness, or biases.
I mean BIAS in the sense that Ontarian cant seem to grasp that there is a lot of world outside of their provincial borders, and believe it or not, they might learn something from this world.
Thank you for providing a forum to discuss this issue. I have found it fascinating and at the same time very frustrating.
Thanks Lee, and Dr. Roy.
Unfortunately John Tory does not seem to be the right leader for the time.
Yes, I think what must have happened is that the Ontario P.C. party must have wanted a leader as far away from Mike Harris as possible. And they succeeded.
Unfortunately, Lemming-Ontario still gobbled up the crap served to them by the Liberal war-room.
Very disheartening.
The other valid criticism of John Tory is that his policies are controversial at best - not the best way to woo voters on either side of the spectrum.
John Tory appears to be the Ontario Conservative equivalent of Stephane Dion. I can hear the knives being sharpened in the shadows.
I'm not prepared to give up. Dalton McGuinty's ahead in the polls, but his support is soft. If John Tory would just start presenting a positive alternative for the rest of the campaign, this can still be a contest.
I don't think Ontario can take another 4 years of Dalton majority government.
yes, joanne, I give up, too.
I don't get how people could vote in this party just based on the healthcare tax alone. Since then, mcasshole has done a heck of a lot of things to piss off the electorate.
but it seems that I was meant to not live in a province that loves the nanny state so much. I know after the last election i was seriously contemplating moving out west. How do I tell my kids that here in Ontario you can lie, cheat and steal and STILL get elected to be premier of this province???
You have people dying on waitlists, yet all the freaking lemmings want to talk about is FB funding????
All I can say is that those who vote for mcguinty must not have had a prolonged exposure of the healthcare system- and they better pray they dont in the future- or else they will truly regret their decision.
I too am frustrated at the prevailing attitude that it is alright for a government to lie, cheat and misappropriate taxpayers' money.
With a looming majority, McGuinty has carte blanche to further increase taxes as he continues to smirk at us.
Four more years in which to further erode the quality of this once glorious province.
Louise M.
I'm not prepared to give up.
Good for you, Luke. I'm throwing you the torch here. It's burning my hands - way too painful.
Tori, Joanne.. we did it! My husband and I picked up and moved to Alberta from Toronto last year. We are watching the ON election campaign with a mixture of relief and horror, feeling thankful we've already escaped. Western boy hit it on the money, those that wish to work hard and live in a free market economy are in the west, those with the nanny state are left in ON. Ontario is on the skids, so very sad to say.
Anne
This is a rogue poll and not consistent with other recently released polls. Think back to what the polls were telling us in 2003 and what the end result was.
I'm just sickened by the fact that this election will cost me at least $2000 over the next four years via his Health Tax... why can't average Ontarians get this?
Well, on the bright side, with Ontario about to continue it's decline, we'll be lined up for a LONG Conservative majority next time around... that's the only silver lining in all of this.
Tory has to back down and say that faith based schools will be submitted for study, and that any vote would be a free vote... sure, the Lieberals will make hay for a day or two, or three or four, but there's no other option... we're screwed in this province if we can't keep McGuinty to at least a minority.
Tory has to back down and say that faith based schools will be submitted for study
I totally agree, and I'm sure about 90% of Ontarioans agree.
PEOPLE, PEOPLE!!!!!!
That is EXACTLY what Tory did say.
THEY WERE GOING TO STUDY THE ISSUE!!!!!
I am as frustrated as you Joanne, but for other reasons. I am frustrated that we will have four more years of "majority" government when less than 50% are voting for the Liberals.
lee,
you know that, and I know that, but obviously the message is not getting out because EVERYONE thinks it will be a fait acompli if tory gets in.
Jo -- I feel exactly as you do. I just put up your post at JN because you say what so many of us are thinking.
I still have hope that someone in the Tory campaign will take the offensive on the FB issue -- the Mike Harris team sure would have!
For those of us old enough to remember, it is very much like the Joe Clark, John Crosby 1979 election campaign. Crosby had said the PC's would raise gasoline taxes 18 cents and the gov't had fallen on that budget. Trudeau hammered that 18 cents to death and won the election. And, guess what? Trudeau raised the gasoline taxes by nearly a dollar. Ontario voters just never seem to learn.
((Ontario is in decline. They've hit the point where a critical mass of voters prefer to live in a perpetual nanny state.
It's the beginning of the end. The conservative West is on the rise, the Liberal Ontario is in deep decline.
And it will perpetuate.
Those who wish to live in a vibrant free market economy will move out west, those who are predisposed to have the government "take care of them" (and in the process draining rather than adding to the local ecomony), will go to Ontario.
Sad, but true.
Come out West Joanne. Leave the rotting socialist landscape for greener pastures.))
AMEN BROTHER!!! In my case, I am strongly being considered a permanent position at Home Depot. I don't think it's a strange idea that after a year or so, they can refer me to a Home Depot in Alberta. I really do not understand the voters in my province. It just gets me extremely angry. If you think Ontario's bad, don't get me started on where I live in Toronto. Sorry if I'm crass but I call Toronto "Socialist Sewer Central"! I really at times don't know how my friend on city council Rob Ford puts up with the run away spending that council. Talk about an uphill battle. Not only this anti-free enterprise attitude in Toronto (and to some degree the rest of Ontario) get me riled, it is also the changing social mores (an anything goes society and millitant secularism) that also get me more mad. At least Alberta is a family-friendly province! Be proud of that fact!
Joanne,
RIGHT ON SISTER! YOU GO GIRL!!! If Ontario voters deny John Tory a government, no incredible mental stupidity can be imagined. They bitterly and fanatically just rejected a man who would have been one of the best Premiers of Ontario in the 21st century. Dalton McGuinty sooo 20th century and Ontario voters know it!
but obviously the message is not getting out because EVERYONE thinks it will be a fait acompli if tory gets in.
Torian, you're exactly right. The message is not getting through. It is being intercepted by the Liberal war room. They are very good at that.
And to be fair to John Tory, I'm sure he would have made an excellent Premier, as Felix noted. It's just that you also have to have a bit of political savvy regarding how to woo the masses, and John Tory is likely just too honest. Did anyone see the interview Global did with John & his wife? It just made me want to give him a big hug.
I meant to post this comment this morning, but blogger threw up error messages at me.
It seems to me that if John Tory can't provide a desirable alternative to OLP, it might have to do with John Tory rather than the voters.
I agree with Suzanne and Roy on this, John Tory does not seem to be able to lead. I know a few great PC candidates so I hope they get in but as for the party I'm iffy on them.
Sara, that's the other side of this - We can't forget the candidates. They are an important component of any election. A good responsible representative is worth his or her weight in gold.
THE SKY IS FALLING!!! THE SKY IS FALLING!!!
I guess this article squashes any possibility of a SC challenge.
These Muslim faith-based schools will grow in numbers if Tory's policy gets adopted, and children will be exposed to the sort of education soaked in bigotry that is a grave malady for the Arab-Muslim world.
That is complete slander, not all muslim schools are soaked in bigotry etc... omg how the fxxx do they get away with this.
That is complete slander, not all muslim schools are soaked in bigotry etc
Yeah, you're right. That never hit me until you mentioned it. Quite a racist statement.
According to Salim Mansur, a practising Muslim and associate professor of political science at the University of Western Ontario, the move to respect the Muslim holy month is a sign of how much Canadians value diversity.
But shows little of how he values his own people. That comment should be dealt with but it won't be,, any guesses why?
"These Muslim faith-based schools will grow in numbers if Tory's policy gets adopted, and children will be exposed to the sort of education soaked in bigotry that is a grave malady for the Arab-Muslim world."
Muslim based school do not all promote hate or are soaked in bigotry. Salim is being the bigot here not the Muslims.
I would suggest to the Edmonton Sun, make Salim publicly apologize for his comments and stop printing is slanderous ink!
I sent this to the Edmonton sun.
Well done, Sara!
Sorry Joanne but things don't look good for Tory.
First of all, Tory isn't really appealing to conservatives at all, and I would suspect that even if I was back in Ontario, I wouldn't vote for him.
Seriously, I don't think Tory would be much better than Dalton right now. Maybe a minority government would do Ontario some good now.
In any case, the West has jobs, resources, and beautiful scenery. Who can resist?
S.O. - O.K. You convinced me. I'll start packing now! ;)
Seriously, though, Greg Lyle gives us some small bit of comfort here.
Ontario would have voted conservative if a conservative had run in the election, but alas that did not happen.
(real conservative)
"Muslim based school do not all promote hate or are soaked in bigotry."
What percentage promoting hate or that are soaked in bigotry is acceptable to you?
One of the many reasons I oppose muslim based schools is because some will. That might make me a racist to many, but I also oppose christian based schools and jewish based schools (or any other religion) for the same reasons.
Actually, I think the ones which don't want the funding because they don't want to have their curriculum align with Ontario standards might be the ones to be concerned about.
"Actually, I think the ones which don't want the funding because they don't want to have their curriculum align with Ontario standards might be the ones to be concerned about."
I'm concerned about both. But I sure as heck don't plan on financially contributing to them. I hear from conservatives all the time about left wing teachers in the public school system influencing students. But religious fanatic teachers? Nope they sound harmless, lets pay their salaries and build schools so they can spread their insanity.
W.S. - At least they'd have to open up to more scrutiny.
I'd like to add a couple of things.
First mistake of Tory Campaign:
THIS IS NOT BILL DAVIS'S ONTARIO !!
It may have once been but it's not any more. Tory's campaign team should have known that the same folks who opposed giving Catholics funding would oppose his plan. Then they should have prepared him better for what the Liberals have done, which it latch on to that fear and roll with it. What boggles my mind is that when Tory had the chance on debate night to go after McGuinty for his own religious hypocrisy he did not. Even when McGuinty was crowing about students in Ontario improving their achievement, Tory did nothing even though a day before the EQAO scores came out a proved for a 2nd year in a row the scores flat-lined or declined.
The other thing that bothers me as a long-time conservative is that the feeling I get from the Tory camp(as I did with the Eve's camp) that I have to apologize for supporting Mike Harris. To me Eves/Tory both give the Liberals something to work with right off the bat. As a voter and someone who worked closely with the two Harris campaigns I'm insulted more than anything by the distancing of Tory from Harris.
I will not apologize because Harris did some things that needed to be done, AND he did it on two back-to-back majorities and with the help of some of those very union-types that have fled to other parties.
I think that while John Tory is a really nice person, he's trusted his advisors over party loyalists.....that's never a good thing.
I hope we're all ready for the next round of teacher union negotiations because it's shaping up already with the ETFO already looking for more money for less work, more prep. time, less supervision.
Bend over Lemmings.
Hey All You Conservatives! - if you really want to stick it to Dalton, and are feeling you want your vote to count for something, consider parking your vote with the NPD.....for now until you get another Harris clone???
Wally
Wally, as tempting as that is, it would only push Nannytario further into socialism and government dependency, as the Liberal regime makes deals with the NDP to cling to power.
It's the same thing here, Joanne. Not satisfied with federal Liberals that couldn't keep their hands off of our money, Prince Edward Islanders now have provincial Liberals that can't keep their hands off the women.
http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=41652f23-7ef5-469d-a7ba-64c8c8692ea0
I live in BC; one of six provinces that have faith-based schools, and it is not an issue. To re-elect the Liberals over this issue is a BIG mistake.
To re-elect the Liberals over this issue is a BIG mistake.
Tell that to the lemmings.
Joanne, you should be looking at the campaign, and wondering what the hell went wrong.
It was a complete mess, with FB education leading. This was Tory's fault alone.
The Lib arrogance over this has convinced me to "hold my nose" and vote PC in my Lib riding, but I suspect we've lost all those borderline people, and some PC's who refuse to accept it. When Tory loses, I hope that PC's will lay the blame where it belongs.
Oh yes, and as I've said before, Tory could still say "he will hold a referendum" on FB funding, and follow it's lead.
This would result in, at a minimum, a PC minority.
Lee said...
PEOPLE, PEOPLE!!!!!!
That is EXACTLY what Tory did say.
THEY WERE GOING TO STUDY THE ISSUE!!!!!
Yes, Lee, if you are naive enough to believe this.
There was no G-D reason to bring this (FB funding) up as a campaign issue. The election was won before it was started.
I'm beginning to believe Tory is a Lib mole.
Tory should spend the next 10 days saying this will be a referendum, and possibly pull this back from a loss.
Möbius, check out the update on this post. Read Sandy's post too. I'd be interested in hearing your reaction.
Here is another non-RC separate school in Ontario, this one in Penetang
You could smirk and call it another "anomaly", but the fact is there is a huge difference between having some "anomalies" and a major fragmenting of education into dozens of school systems. It will quickly become too expensive and we'll go to a voucher system. Then we'll have more kids growing up uneducated, which will start the decline your commenters claim is already happening.
I think the separate system should be required to become the faith based system. It should be required to allow anyone from a faith oriented family to attend. It can maintain the predominance of RC symbols and teaching, but that is mainly because of the RCs population predominance. Don't some jewish people send their kids to separate schools?
But I agree with Moebius. Tory could pull this one out of the fire. It won't matter in my area, the incumbent will win anyway.
"To re-elect the Liberals over this issue is a BIG mistake."
In case people haven't noticed the Liberals were leading in the polls before Tory brought up FBE.
Tell that to the lemmings.
Right people are lemmings because they don't care to buy what Tory is selling.
western boy - getting a little cocky - if his great Kahuna (Harper) would what is needed for municipalities (and please don't give me this nanny states stuff - the huge surplus he has is "our" money - not a freebee).
...rotting, socialist landscape.. - LOL, LOL.
Yup, every conservative government in the US and Canada and Britain leave their country in a mess - uh, huh.
Joanne, I've lived in Ontario, Quebec, and BC so far. I often think of one day going back to BC.
In all seriousness, why don't you try it? If I recall correctly (I may not), you're single and have no dependents. Try it for a year and see what you think. It'd make an incredible blogging experiment, test-driving Alberta or BC from an Ontarian perspective. I'd love to read that kind of material and experience. And hey, the name "Joanne's Journey" would take on a whole new resonance. I seriously hope you consider the idea - it's a great one. And I strongly suspect you'd be very, very happy there.
The election - guys, it's not over. You can't predict what will happen. I'm voting for my local NDP candidate out of the bunch, but province-wide, I'd like to vote for Tory. If he can get a message out, anything is possible - polls are meaningless.
On another note for the more complacent and surrendering among you - here's a slap across the face, you sheep. Polls? You talk to me of polls??? Polls are MEANINGLESS, you spineless wimps. Polls say the federal Harper Conservatives and Dion Liberals are neck and neck. Does anyone here actually believe that??? Does anyone here actually believe that an equal number of people will vote for Dion as will vote for Harper? Because if you do, you're nuts, and you need help - serious help. It's just a poll - get over it, because it ain't over til it's over. I'll be happy to give you my shoulder to cry on come the 11th if the McGuinty Liberals get back in - I'm there for you. But I'm pretty sure it's September still. You want to win an election with this kind of "aw, I give up" attitude? Good luck. St. Crispian's Day and all that - persevere and may the Force be with you.
Signed,
Jason Bo "Anyone but Dalton" Green
Oh, and another thing, sourpusses - I personally choose Harper over the other party leaders to be PM. I imagine all of Joanne's commenters would choose any Tory leader to be PM. So why all the gloom and doom? Stephen Harper is praying for a McGuinty win in Ontario, don't you get it? Liberal governments in Quebec and Ontario spell more federal votes for the Conservatives.
Enough with the sob-party - look on the bright side.
(PS Have you ever considered the inverse? That Ontario and Quebec prefer Liberal provincial governments because they prefer a Harper government in Ottawa? What is it with you sadsacks? Cheer up a little. I mean it - I don't wanna have to Care Bear Stare anyone, but I'm armed and I'm prepared to go for broke...!)
Thanks, JBG. I needed that smack in the head. Seriously.
You're right about the polls. It's a snapshot in time.
Regarding moving.. Maybe someday, but in fact I am married with children, as they say. And I can't give up on my birth-province. I just can't do that.
I loved making those comments.
Your kids and husband would love the West. Maybe one day!
But hey, Ontario just wouldn't be the same without you, it's true. ;)
Ha ha - come to me anytime you need a shoulder to cry on, *OR* a smack in the head - lol.
That Ontario and Quebec prefer Liberal provincial governments because they prefer a Harper government in Ottawa?
I don't think so. That dynamic used to work with the Liberals and Progressive Conservatives. I have voted PC in Ontario following that dynamic. The idea is that you need to punish whoever is in power from time to time, and give them a timeout. It works better when you have different parties in power in Queens Park and Ottawa.
That worked, because we knew that in one session, even a majority session, neither party would radically change things. This is often referred to as "careening from majority to majority with different parties". Aside from the pejorative name "careening" given to this, it has the effect that each point of view gets to drive for awhile and in theory we see the best of each.
It's different now. The CPC is not your father's PC party. It is dangerous to Canada. Feel free to call me a scare monger. Followers of the Harper agenda are much more "lemming like" to me than people who vote for Dolton.
Really, four years of Dalton in a majority and we will still have an Ontario. Tory should drop the faith based school thing, and he'd probably get votes like mine.
Four years of Harper majority and we may not have a Canada. At least not one we recognize (to coin a phrase).
This is what John Tory gets for abandoning his the true conservatives out there. The key in politics is this: tend to your base.
He left us a long time before we left him. Good riddence to bad rubbish.
Oh, and my bold prediction. Tory will lose his seat on October 10th. Frank Klees is open to be leader now.
Sorry if I sound like a broken record:
There has been far too much emphasis on education, instead of the real problems of law and order and health care. Tory has to take responsibility for that. Was it too easy for him to discuss education because he had no real solutions for the other areas?
I want McGuinty gone, and our local PC guy is a real hard worker, so I have no trouble voting PC.
Thanks JJ ... didn't think my swans could generate such a lively discussion. They have returned to the Bay and thus have begun to winter on the West Coast. We are blessed with beautiful wildlife and the land is green all winter.
Remember the old saying about the "fat lady singing". Voters have a way of singing their thoughts during an election so you will need to listen carefully to the Ontario Tune. Fingers crossed for the Tory of the Tories! Here in BC it's the Liberals I have to hope for, the only alternative are the the Dippers - go figure
WCT
Ha ha - come to me anytime you need a shoulder to cry on, *OR* a smack in the head - lol.
You always cheer me up, JBG.
Four years of Harper majority and we may not have a Canada.
L.S., what exactly are you afraid of? He's hugging the middle so closely that a lot of Conservatives are as frustrated with him as they are with John Tory.
Of course, Harper is smarter.
didn't think my swans could generate such a lively discussion. They have returned to the Bay and thus have begun to winter on the West Coast. We are blessed with beautiful wildlife and the land is green all winter.
Teddi! I'm so glad you dropped by. I was hunting around in the archives for some information and came across that gorgeous picture that you sent me. I just love it. You guys are blessed indeed out there on the west coast.
Yeah, I think your Liberals out there have their heads on straight if Christy Clark is any example.
Haven't been around in a while Joanne, so just thought that I would stop by and say "allo".
Elections are like this sometimes and there is a long time left in the campaign. To be honest, anything could happen. No one is counting on anything right now.
At the end of the day, keep in mind though that you're about win a federal election ;-)
This post reminds me of something I was thinking of when driving around the city today. I really can't believe anyone would actually put a Liberal sign on their lawn. Personally even if I were (perish the thought) a Liberal supporter, I would under no circumstances put a lawn sign on my lawn in this election. I would be utterly embarassed to advertise that I was someone who truly didn't care if a politician obviously and blatantly and repeatedly lied and would support and re-elect such a person or party. If ever there were an election for the Liberal supporters to turn as red as their lawn signs this is it.
Zac! This is like homecoming week! So good to hear from you. Thanks for the encouragement. I know you're pulling for the other side, so that is especially nice of you to say.
If ever there were an election for the Liberal supporters to turn as red as their lawn signs this is it.
Good one, Steph! I hear ya. But I suppose in some ridings the individual candidates may be popular. That's the only explanation I can think of.
Tory should drop the faith based school thing, and he'd probably get votes like mine.
L.S. - Seriously?
Here's another idea nobody seems to have thought of. Maybe Tory wants to lose. Maybe the conservative party can see the inevitable massive recession that is coming for Ontario very soon and don't want to be the ones in charge and blamed for it. Look what is happening in the US right now and know that Ontario's economy is almost totally dependant on American manufacturing companies. Also the same collapse with mortgages that recently happened in the US could happen here anytime as we have set ourselves up in exactly the same way (especially if massive layoffs start in the auto sector etc.) Maybe this FB school issue is just a way to lose the battle but win the war in the long run.
TJS
Glad to hear it Joanne. =) Welcome to the Wonderful West.
Tory really bungled this campaign in my opinion. But considering his past... is it really much of a surprise? Dalton has lots of problems; a poor economy, a failure to improve the education system (without reducing the standards that is), or the health care system, going back on more promises than I can count, etc..
And yet, Tory decided that the separate schools issue was his hill to die on? Not only that, at least in my former riding, my family is telling me that the Tories ran a really REALLY poor candidate, while the NDP and Liberals ran good ones.
Hey Joanne:
I understand your feelings. You have worked so hard putting the truth out there, and it is sooooo frustrating when people are either ill-informed or give into fear mongering. I was also very frustrated during our Manitoba elections. Although Gary Doer and the NDP are not as bad as McGuinty and the Liberals, I wanted to scream because I could not believe that people could be so stupid. Unfortunately, most people don't follow politics as we do, and make their decisions based on little snippets or headlines. You have done such a wonderful job explaining things and your blog is really right up there with the best of them. I can't believe that this whole faith-based school thing outweighs lies, lies, and lies. But, what do I know... thanks for your great site!
I’m trying to understand what’s going on in mainly protestant rural Ontario re. FBF.I checked out the Orange Lodge websites….no discussion going ON. I read these people stand for Preservation of the English Language ,Promoting and Maintaining the Protestant Faith, The Public School Concept, and A United Canada. But nothing about lying stealing cheating or good old traditional values. Like a new candidate put it, he’s ethical but he can’t afford to be when playing at Ontario provincial politics.
The Mrs’s family are of a local traditional protestant denomination and want nothing to do with FBF. END OF DISCUSSION. They see other faiths as a threat and blame them for public school’s no longer saying the Lord’s prayer. They don’t realize that the threat to their faith comes from the secularists to whom they have handed over their schools. And then you have the Knights of Columbus crowd who are happy with the status quo which is discriminatory to other faiths. Even though most don’t publicly display their faith, their convictions run deep. Looking at the irrational response this election, maybe the secularists supported by the Green Party are correct- all faith based thought must be purged from schools. But why stop at schools when churches, mosques and synagogues sow the divisive seeds? As people snooze, the secularist social engineers are building a brave new world around them.
L.S. - BTW, thanks for the Penetang link. Where did you hear about that?
Maybe the conservative party can see the inevitable massive recession that is coming for Ontario very soon and don't want to be the ones in charge and blamed for it.
TJS - Interesting strategy. But if that's true, then John Tory really isn't the right man for the job, because someone who really cared would want to do all they could for the manufacturing sector right now, as Howard Hampton is doing (in his own quirky NDP way).
Let's see. And what is Dalton doing?
Glad to hear it Joanne. =) Welcome to the Wonderful West.
lol! Well, you know I was just kidding. I'd love to get out there and see the Rockies someday though.
Yes, looking back, it would have been wiser for John Tory to announce that he would like to 'investigate' the 'possiblity' of FB-funding, and then put it to a free vote. That would have likely gone over better with the public.
Of course, the Liberal War Room would have pounced on it anyway.
Barbara, thanks so much for your kind words and encouragement. I feel a bit guilty for focusing so much on this provincial election at the expense of more national issues that would likely be more interesting for the ROC.
But on the other hand, consider this - If McGuinty gets in again, and he likely will, then be prepared for him to continue begging in Ottawa at your expense, while he plans the next holiday that Ontario 'can afford' because it's doing 'so well', while people continue to lose their jobs as companies move out of Ontario.
They see other faiths as a threat and blame them for public school’s no longer saying the Lord’s prayer. They don’t realize that the threat to their faith comes from the secularists to whom they have handed over their schools.
And then you have the Knights of Columbus crowd who are happy with the status quo which is discriminatory to other faiths.
Good points, Anon. And now we can add Mennonites and Protestants to the list of favoured faiths funded by the province.
another gem from Lorrie:
http://www.torontosun.com/Comment/2007/09/30/4538065-sun.html
Thanks Torian. I just noticed that too. I'm preparing an update.
Here’s an insight why practicing Catholics don't care about FBF.
“Today, there are some 20,000 homeschoolers in Ontario, many of them Catholic.”
http://catholicinsight.com/online/church/education/article_756.shtml
Some aren’t too happy over what being in the public system has cost them …
The underlying debate is about faith based schools teaching their kids against homosexuality, abortion etc. regardless who pays.
Most of us don’t want to get dragged into the fight between the gay paraders and religionists. You got both sides trying to impose there mores on others.
There is a middle way. The government pays for the core curriculum to be taught in any school and parents pay for any additional faith based teaching at least until we outlaw all religion. If we aren’t going to let a faith based school teach whatever morals to their own kids then we might as well shut their church down and outlaw their religion. Neither side help their cause by openly proselytizing outsiders.
There is a middle way. The government pays for the core curriculum to be taught in any school and parents pay for any additional faith based teaching
Great point.
Then there are also charter schools in Alberta, which seem to be quite successful.
Regarding your comment about debate in Catholic schools regarding gay content, this is a huge issue in Waterloo Region.
This is why some faiths are against John Tory's proposal - There will be too much government meddling in their curriculum. They don't want to lose control over it.
So, ironically, Dalton McGuinty's stubborn stance on this will actually only exasperate attitudes of bias and discrimination.
The only anomaly in education these days is Kathleen Wynne. She fails to admit that choices are being offered, even religious ones within the public system. It there not a very successful school in Waterloo driven by Mennonites along the same lines as Eden that's public? What about the alternative schools in the Toronto Board which have a prerequisite? There's one I can think of that the preference is that you have to be of Ukrainian heritage, yet it's under the public tent. What of the proposal in Toronto to create an all black school?
I've been told that the TDSB has been in talks with the Jewish funders of day-schools in a similar plan to that of John Tory's. Why aren't we finding out about this?
Oh, and let's NOT forget homeschoolers, who in some provinces also get help re: funding and resources from their governments. Another area where Ontario lags far, FAR behind.
I've been told that the TDSB has been in talks with the Jewish funders of day-schools in a similar plan to that of John Tory's. Why aren't we finding out about this?
Yes, I've heard those rumours too. Meanwhile, it looks like the Jewish community is organizing to support FB-funding.
Regarding the Waterloo school are you thinking of Rockway Mennonite?
Like every publicly funded school in Ontario, Rockway teaches the Ontario curriculum of studies. Our teachers are certified by the province and belong to the Ontario College of Teachers. At our expense, the Ministry of Education regularly inspects our teaching standards and grants us the right to offer our graduates an Ontario secondary school diploma.
I don't know how I missed that one! Good catch, Anon.
Is it too much for Ontarians to understand the McGuinty has lied to voters about John Tory's plan for faith-based schools? I feel physically ill to know that Ontarians are so stupid to not understand that point.
There is absolutely no difference in my mind from Tory's plan and McGuinty's wanting all faiths educated in the public system. Same frigging idea.
I'm supporting John Tory(even as a hard right Tory) because unlike some other lemmings I totally understand that all John's proposal does is gets us talking about an issue that potentially brings us into the 21st century with 6 other provinces who recognize the value of parental choice in education and aren't afraid to do so.
No public system in those provinces has fallen. What's happened is that public schools have had to compete and improve or risk that exodus.
How come no journalists have uncovered that the McGuinty Liberals went on a fact-finding mission to Edmonton to learn about how the most successful educational jurisdication in the country has managed to use choice as a vehicle for improvement.
I believe that Dalton McGuinty likes the Charter School idea very much and modelled his Lighthouse schools after charters.
Good charter school legislation would enable any and all to develope their own schools under government contracts. That means that any and all religions could also.
I believe he's going to head this way and that's why he's so against what Tory wants.....because the Liberals want to trump this whole idea.
Hey Joanne - so with Rockaway, Penetang and Edan that makes three such schools in Ontario, which makes our education minister drastically out of touch with what the schools are doing.
Seriously folks. Go to the Toronto District School Board website and search "alternative schools" Look at the schools like Rosedale Academy which does NOT accept all students and tell me that we don't already have a system of seperation/segregation in this province right under our noses.
I wonder if Kinsella actually meant for Dalton McGuinty to come off looking and sounding by all accounts like Paul Martin?
Arrogant, entitled, and unaccountable for our money.
Clearly a vote for the McGuinty Liberals gets us thrown back to the culture for Paul Martin entitlement and funnelling of money to Liberal friends.
The fruit doesn't fall far from Mr. Martin's tree does it?
I believe that Dalton McGuinty likes the Charter School idea very much and modelled his Lighthouse schools after charters.
That's a new one on me.
" - so with Rockaway, Penetang and Edan that makes three such schools in Ontario, which makes our education minister drastically out of touch with what the schools are doing."
Are Tory and Wynne having their All candidates showdown in Don Valley west sometime today...he best not choke on this issue
Are Tory and Wynne having their All candidates showdown in Don Valley west sometime today...he best not choke on this issue.
Yeah, this could be a very important debate.
What fools you are - you've spent weeks name calling, bashing, trashing, insulting for what?
I watched Oprah the other day regarding the health care crisis in the US. Horrible stories of people losing everything they own, etc.
After seeing it, I realize our health tax is a small price to pay for health security and not losing all your assets. Small, small price to pay indeed.
western boy.....mind your own business - would you want us telling you what to do in your province? I doubt it. You're using it as a chance to bash and trash.
The problem with conservatives - they are unhappy, negative angry people and it's a turn off.
Dalton's kids attended a school in Ottawa that lobbied John Snobelen hard to become a charter school. Parents, teachers and principals at Samuel Genais wanted nothing better than to have special consideration and break away from the public system.
Are there no archives that follow Dan Gardiner's stories about that time? I recall a charter school conference held in Toronto in 1997 that saw a huge contingent from Genais in attendance.
How hard is it for the MSM to find out about the Liberal visit to Edmonton, or their interest in the charter school movement?
I find Dalton's opposition and the myths being spread about fb based schools the same as those launched by the teacher unions and their pet parent groups on the issue of tax-credits. The myths of school choice are nicely dispelled at the Society for Quality Education's website.
Do you think it's a coincidence that Dalton's on-side with the teacher union-hyped myths of school choice?
A more pointed question to Dalton is why he dislikes parents so much as to not give parents the power to vote with their feet and exit the public system, WHICH, in my opinion, given the recent EQAO results shouldn't stand as the poster-child for an education system where kids are doing better in reading, writing and math.
Hey EDT - the only angry guy in this election is Dalton McGuinty.
Angry, arrogant, entitled, unaccountable.
Both Tory and Hampton have be more professional and statemanlike.
Dalton reminds me of the kid in the class that ratted the others out.
The Liberals have been flip-flopping on this issue for years. Check this out from a May 2001 issue of NOW:
Shoot-from-the-lip McGuinty, it turns out, was a little too quick to condemn the Tory proposal. Several members of his caucus -- at least half a dozen, one MPP says -- are not averse to extending tax credits to religious schools, which is also part of the Tory plan.
It turns out McGuinty isn't opposed to the idea either, if we're to believe the tune he's singing now, but that's not the impression he gave when he wrote former Foreign Affairs minister Lloyd Axworthy on the subject last year. That was shortly after the United Nations criticized Ontario for funding Catholic schools but not those of other faiths.
The Liberal leader now says money for religion-based educational institutions should be made available, just not right away. First, he says, we need to fix a public school system that's in total disarray.
As usual, the Liberals want to have it both ways.
What a mess. Still, Gerard Kennedy, the Grits' education critic, doesn't see a contradiction in the Liberal position.
He contends that funding for religious schools doesn't necessarily mean less money for the public system. Both can be accommodated, he says. How?
"We don't have the answer to that at this time," says Kennedy.
Read the whole thing; especially at the end about union pressure.
McGuinty's all about bowing to union pressure after all.
McGuinty = Paul Martin - arrogant
McGuinty = Paul Martin - entitled
McGuinty = Paul Martin - unaccountable with YOUR money
McGuinty will give Ontario the kind of government Paul Martin gave our country....and we know hows that ended don't we?
Get a grip you whiney conservatives. You've got to be the same jerks who give up on the Leafs when they never make it to the Stanley Cup. Go Calgary!
Rather hillarious how CTV spins the debate between Wynne and Tory describing Wynne as the "popular" education minister. Um..nope. Not in my community. She may be popular with the unions and union parent groups but she'll always be a loudmouth school board trustee who led the charge against the gov't of the day and refused to balance the books.
We also need to remind folks that she's increased the number of well-paid bureaucrats at the MOE substancially, AND is now buying parent participation with money best suited to classrooms.
I recall before her days as a trustee her being boo'd out of a meeting being hosted in the same riding when Turnbull had it.
Wynne must think that her Premier is unpopular otherwise why would she leave his name off of her campaign literature???
I hear Tory smacked her down good in their debate!!
I hear Tory smacked her down good in their debate!!
Really? If you see any links, please let me know. Thanks.
Ok..hold on there for a minute.
You're saying that Tory beat Wynne today? Buddy, you must have been watching the wrong debate.
Tory got some shots in but when youre going up against the education minister with a albatross around your neck, you cant do very well.
I never would have thought it, but I think that Wynne may actually win this riding. Initially, I was think that TOry would never have event considered running here without some serious polling done. But, the support just isnt there for him I dont think. He has very few signs up while most neighbourhoods are painted red with Wynne signs. Most people here agree: We're not Dufferin-Caledon, we don't roll out the welcome mat to provincial leaders just because your a leader.
Earn our votes or dont bother showing up!
Alex, I just saw a Global TV report. They say it was a very emotional and heated debate. I wish I could have seen it.
I didn't see it the same way Alex did. I saw emotion on both sides and a total screw-up with the time keeper. I think Tory did good actually.
I predict this riding will return Tory. Kathleen Wynne rubs folks the wrong way. Plenty of alternative and religious schools in the riding.
Wynne was the angry Liberal we've heard about on this blog.
I saw emotion on both sides and a total screw-up with the time keeper. .
I saw that too on Global. Who was hosting the debate?
This is the only story I've found so far.
Here's a little perspective from small town rural Ontario on fb funding and this election.
Last week there was an all candidate's debate in our riding.
We have 5 candidates running.
Attendance at the debate saw the candidates outnumber the attendees.
Sad, but true. This election isn't peaking the interest or concern of anyone out here. Also FB funding isn't as scarey out here in the land of Dutch Reform, Mennonites and Amish schools.
We too have an angry Liberal currently who likes to wag a finger at the TV monitor as if scolding a child.
PCs are doing ok here, and the Catholics quite frankly are embarassed by McGuinty's stand.
as far as I'm concerned this election IS the referendum on school choice.
If Tory loses McGuinty will be quick to steal his ideas and call them his own..wait for it.....as usual.
Joanne (True Blue) said...
Möbius, check out the update on this post. Read Sandy's post too. I'd be interested in hearing your reaction.
Hey there,
Sorry for the long delay in replying, as my DSL modem bit the dust in one or our recent thunderstorms.
I blame FB funding for that!!!!
I think the funding issue is indefensible, even with the usual Liberal hyposcrisy. I've said many times that you do not bring such a dividing issue up, when you are likely to win an election, which Tory was, 6 months ago.
He's still defending it, in a TS article I read today. He's "right", and all of us conservatives are wrong.
LS says,
"It's different now. The CPC is not your father's PC party. It is dangerous to Canada. Feel free to call me a scare monger."
You're a scare monger! What's dangerous to Canada is people blindly voting for a corrupt party.
The minute Dion takes over, we are truly f**ked. Not that I have to worry about that.
"for faith-based schools? I feel physically ill to know that Ontarians are so stupid to not understand that point."
How many Ontarians are really involved in this election, knowing the parties and names of the candidates?
Typically, only a small minority. Politics is boring to most people, even though it's likely one of the most important decisions they make into how their money is spent.
How else can you explain a PM Lib minority after the details of sponsorship were revealed?
"Joanne says,
But on the other hand, consider this - If McGuinty gets in again, and he likely will, then be prepared for him to continue begging in Ottawa at your expense, while he plans the next holiday that Ontario 'can afford' because it's doing 'so well', while people continue to lose their jobs as companies move out of Ontario."
The TS is alluding to a "secret" deal between Toronto mayor Miller, and the Ont Libs, where they would get more money to solve Toronto funding problems if elected.
Möbius - You sure made up for the outage! Sorry about your modem. That's happened to us too.
I blame FB funding for that!!!!
Whew! I thought you were going to say 'Climate change'!
The TS is alluding to a "secret" deal between Toronto mayor Miller, and the Ont Libs, where they would get more money to solve Toronto funding problems if elected.
I read that at the Star site too. It sure sounded like a deal. Miller goes to hear McGuinty speak, and after he's done, Miller jumps up and applauds wildly.
What a crew. They both disgust me.
I think we're mad at John Tory because he is responsible for us looking at four more years of McGuinty. Excuse me while I barf.
City TV clip here (with video).
Four more years. Yep, bugs the hell out of me. The PC's need to read the manual, and figure out that conservatism means smaller government, lower taxes, and necessary services.
No slush funds, no FB funding.
Globe.
Post a Comment