Wednesday, September 19, 2007

Dalton vs the OCCB

An interesting schism in opinion seems to be developing between the Ontario Council of Catholic Bishops (OCCB), and the Catholic Premier of Ontario who as you know, insists that only Catholic faith-based schools can be publicly funded. (Post) - Catholic Schools Debate Vaccine:

It is up to parents to decide whether their daughters get the vaccine, but HPV can only be contracted through sex, and sex outside marriage carries "profound risks to a young person's spiritual, emotional, moral and physical health," the Conference of Catholic Bishops said in a statement'

The fear is that if Grade 8 girls were to receive the vaccination, it would be sending mixed messages, since the Catholic position is one of chastity and abstinence before marriage.


In their letter, the bishops express "regret" that the program was introduced in Ontario schools without more study and public education. The note urges parents to keep in mind some important considerations when deciding whether to let their daughter have the shot, saying the vaccine could have "unintended and unwanted consequences."

Yes, wasn't it interesting that this program was launched just before the writ was dropped?

Ah, but Auditor General Jim McCarter foiled that plot. I like that guy.



Meanwhile, Dalton has a plan if any Catholic School Boards don't comply:

"But if we run into a lot of resistance from a particular school board, we've already thought this through – we can do it through public health," he said.



And if you recall, the OCCB challenged Dalton earlier, when it came out in favour of public funding for all faith-based schools; essentially endorsing John Tory's position.


Meanwhile, there have been rumours that public Catholic funding may be on the way out, but Dalton vehemently denies it, even though one of his key education advisers has been speculating otherwise.



You know, Dalton McGuinty himself is a perfect example of why nobody in Ontario should fear extremist religious viewpoints being cultured in faith-based schools.

It obviously didn't affect him.


* * * *

Meanwhile, Lorrie Goldstein has a theory on why Dalton continues the fear-mongering offensive regarding faith-based funding.


14 comments:

Joanne (True Blue) said...

This subject is being discussed right now on CHML.

Nicol DuMoulin said...

Excellent post.

I have said for a long time that the Liberals will dismantle the Catholic education system if re-elected. That was part of the reason why McGuinty went to a Catholic school to extol the virtues of public funding and say his Catholicism was something private.

I suspect the talks with the union heads are already happening in private.

When, and I do mean when, this happens, there will be plenty of very sad Catholic voters and teachers who voted Liberal in the election.

That Tory is not mentioning this astounds me. I hope he does at the debate but suspect he will not.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

When, and I do mean when, this happens,

Thanks, Nicol. Is that a gut feeling you have, or do you know something you're not sharing? ;)

I'm all ears.

Nicol DuMoulin said...

Hey Joanne,

Oh, just a very strong gut reaction based on my understanding of progressive ideology and what their end-game is.

For the record, I do not have any inside information, but I do know people that work for Dalton Mc G (hmmmm, maybe someone should write a Mc G rap).

They are totally desirous of the idea.

The foundations for major societal changes like this are usually laid years ahead of the public knowing what is going on. By the time the public is made aware, it is just a question of getting enough of them on your side through fear and rhetoric.

I feel sorry for all of the genuine Catholic teachers who will vote for Dalton out of good faith who will then have to realize that they won't have a job in a few years. They will say they are too biased to teach in the Catholic system.

And I guarantee, it will happen. I would take bets on it.

wayward son said...

"but HPV can only be contracted through sex, and sex outside marriage carries "profound risks to a young person's spiritual, emotional, moral and physical health," the Conference of Catholic Bishops said in a statement"

First of all even if the girl waits until marriage, it also means that the guy she is marrying must also be a virgin. HPV doesn't say "hold it just a minute, she's got a wedding ring on, we can't touch her." That is because HPV is a virus that has no brain. But somehow, it seems, more intelligence than the Catholic Bishops.

Second of all, the Bishops are living in lala land. Maybe they should remind parents that their children are as likely to wait until marriage as they were. I know a lot of people who are sending their kids to Catholic schools. Not one of them waited until marriage. Not one of them has had only one partner in their life. That includes my brother and his wife and my sister and her husband. But there is always that possibility that the children will turn out to be the little angels that the parents were not. Why not risk their lives for no reason what so ever?

"sex outside marriage carries "profound risks to a young person's spiritual, emotional, moral and physical health,""

I don't think that even the Bishops believe that utter tripe.

"The fear is that if Grade 8 girls were to receive the vaccination, it would be sending mixed messages, since the Catholic position is one of chastity and abstinence before marriage."

Absolute stupidity. Oh yeah, four years later the girl is getting it on with a guy that she has been dating a year. Their hormones are going wild, maybe a bit of alcohol, 'all our friends are doing it.' 'I love him, I think he loves me too.' 'What's the big deal?' Oh, but I know the Bishops have said that I should save myself til marriage. That's what I am going to do.......But wait a second - didn't I get the HPV vaccination at my catholic school? Oh now I am so confused, the mixed messages are overwhelming. Screw it, screw everything, Not only am I going to have sex with my boyfriend, but then I am going to do the whole football team, drop out of school, become a teenaged mom, a prostitute and drug addict and it is all the fault of the catholic church who allowed me to get a vaccination when I was 12 years old.

These Bishops are asking parents to believe that their children who will the same life inexperience, urges, hormones, and confusion that all teenagers have to behave in a manner that is not only more "responsible" then their parents were at the same age, but more responsible then many of the parents NOW. That is sick and hypocritical, if you ask me.

"In their letter, the bishops express "regret" that the program was introduced in Ontario schools without more study and public education."

Proof that the Bishops have not bothered to read the literature out there, but are approaching this from an emotional perspective. And instead of asking parents to look at this from the side of reason and knowledge, they are asking parents to be overtaken by the same emotional response. That is completely irresponsible.

"The note urges parents to keep in mind some important considerations when deciding whether to let their daughter have the shot, saying the vaccine could have "unintended and unwanted consequences.""

Like what? Parents should consider that their daught who has a 98% chance of having sex before marriage, would instead after the shot have a 98% chance of having sex before marriage. Oh my, the sky IS FALLING.

wayward son said...

"The foundations for major societal changes like this are usually laid years ahead of the public knowing what is going on. By the time the public is made aware, it is just a question of getting enough of them on your side through fear and rhetoric."

My, my, seeing as this country is being governed by one giant conspiracy after another, it is amazing that we are all not just living like monkeys in cages throughing our feces around. I sure am scared of governments now. Lets get rid of them. Time for a revolution.

Nicol DuMoulin said...

Wayward Son,

No conspiracy. Just the way your country works through academia and legal circles.

That you are not aware of this and seem blithley naive to reality is unfortunate.

Incidentally, your comments on HPV are equally uninformed and are truly motivated by illogic and emotion.

You would do well to read more than the latest press release from the McG camp.

wayward son said...

"That you are not aware of this and seem blithley naive to reality is unfortunate."

Baloney Nicol, I have spent enough time around politics to know that McGuinty and his handlers doesn't know what they think today, let alone some master plan for 4 years from now. Same goes for all politicians.

"Incidentally, your comments on HPV are equally uninformed and are truly motivated by illogic and emotion. You would do well to read more than the latest press release from the McG camp."

I have read much of the medical research and literature and couldn't give a crap what McGuinty says (never have and never will vote for him). There is not a single indication in any of the piles of research that this vaccine is anymore than it says it is: An almost 100% protection against the several most common strains of HPV which causes cervical cancer in many women. A vaccine has been been studied much more than most vaccines and which studies have shown carries far less risk of complications or side-effects then almost all every other vaccine on the market. Unfortunately too many people, like you apparentely, have been duped by liers into believing otherwise. Maybe you should go read John Tory's press releases on this vaccine. He, apparently, has the brains to see through the B.S. conspiracy theorists are spreading.

--Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory said he hoped all Ontario schools, including Catholic ones, adopt the new program.

"I would like to hope all school boards will co-operate in making sure these vaccines are available and that if there's anybody that doesn't want to have the vaccine, that's a parental decision," he said.--

wayward son said...

Furthermore,

"No conspiracy. Just the way your country works through academia and legal circles."

Yes Nicol that is a conspiracy theory and just like conspiracies surrounding this vaccination, it is other rubbish.

I think Neal Boortz (the sixth most popular radio host in the US and far more conservative than the Republican party) said it best about conspiracy theories in reply to a comment from a listener who asked him to explain about "chemtrails," which the government is supposedly using for mind control. His reply:

"OK, Jim. I'll explain. You're a nutcase. Those "chemicals" you think the military is spraying on citizens are nothing more than ice crystals formed by the condensation created by high-flying aircraft. Somewhere along the line some lonely demented hysteric decided that the military was crop dusting people with all sorts of chemicals designed to make us sick, change our behavior or neuter us. I have no idea in the world what went wrong in your education, upbringing or mental health history that caused you to actually believe this insane nonsense ... I can only hope that you don't vote."

Amen.

Nicol DuMoulin said...

Sorry for the intrusion Joanne,

Wayward Son,

Again, not a conspiracy at all. Do you actually think progressive philosophies and what they mean are not discussed in academia and legal circles years before they make it to the public sector?

Do you really think issues such as the abolishing of faith based schools or SSM or vaccinations are not debated in private among people in academic circles and legal backgrounds years before they are debated in public?

My golly, I was being taught about SSM 15 years ago in university. It only made to the public sphere 5 years ago after a court already decided in favour of it with no public debate whatsoever. These ideas do not come out of a vacuum.

Sorry you are so naive about that. Even sorrier that I have to live under a goverment elected by you.

As for the vaccine, I couldn't care less what a politician says. The HPV vaccine is highly controversial and as you would find if you did actual medical research, comes with considerable risk to the girls who use it. The FDA risk list associated with it is a catalogue of horrors.

Oh, didn't the Toronto Star report that?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Sorry for the intrusion Joanne,

hey, no problem. Be my guest here, Nicol. I have a nasty cough and don't have the energy to debate anyone right now. You're doing me a huge favour!

wayward son said...

“As for the vaccine, I couldn't care less what a politician says. The HPV vaccine is highly controversial and as you would find if you did actual medical research, comes with considerable risk to the girls who use it. The FDA risk list associated with it is a catalogue of horrors.”

I am sorry Joanne, but there appears to only be two possibilities. Nicol is either nuts or a liar. Sorry Nicol, I do read medical journals (as well as science journals) and it is very clear that this vaccination is safe.

“The FDA has licensed the HPV vaccine as safe and effective. This vaccine has been tested in over 11,000 females (ages 9-26 years) around the world. These studies have shown NO serious side effects. The most common side effect is soreness at the injection site.” It takes some real mental acrobatics to transform “no risk” into “considerable risk.” 7 million doses have been given in the US alone. It has been approved in at least 80 countries. They ALL must be involved in the cover up. Chime in the x-files music. The FDA, CDC and ACIP (the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices) along with medical organizations in Canada and about 100 other countries have all reviewed all of the research and concluded that there are NO SERIOUS SIDE EFFECTS. (and this is not some drug that was dreamed up a couple months ago, this has been a twenty year process).

In fact the only thing in a medical journal I can think of is Lippmann’s short piece in the Canadian Jourmal of Medicine which basically said there is no epidemic of HPV and cervical cancer is only the number 13 cause of cancer in Canada so give us money to study it more. There is not one serious potential side effect listed or mentioned by Lippmann. Everything else I have read in CJAM confirms that the HPV vaccination is safe, beneficial, and not controverial in the least.

But you say “the FDA risk list associated with it is a catalogue of horrors.” Well it takes a lot of hypocrisy to say that I should read some medical research, while you obviously have not, and instead quote (without attributing the quote mind you) to a complete nutter like Fitton from Judical Watch. Hmmm, he has no medical knowledge at all. Well good for you. Nice to see that you are well informed and relying on credible sources.

Hey, if you don’t want to allow your daughters to get vaccinated I couldn’t care less. But don’t spread lies to try to convince other parents that protecting their own daughters is dangerous. Other people’s children shouldn’t suffer because of your delusions.

“Again, not a conspiracy at all.”

The definition of a conspiracy is: “An act of working in secret to obtain some goal.”

You might not understand the drivel you actually write, but you were writing about people who WORK FOR Dalton McGuinty and said about them: “The foundations for major societal changes like this are usually laid years ahead of the public knowing what is going on. By the time the public is made aware, it is just a question of getting enough of them on your side through fear and rhetoric.”

What you wrote is textbook conspiracy theory, and complete B.S. Just because there are progressives who discuss progressive things and those progressive things at some time may be adopted by a wider audience and therefore a political party doesn’t mean a damn thing, and certainly implies nothing of a conspiracy as you seem to believe. There are also conservatives who discuss conservative things in think tanks in the academic world. Where do you think neoconservative thought came from? Hello. The academic world. Was it some kind of Republican plot? No.

wayward son said...

By the way the Canadian Medical Association Journal did analysis of all of the major studies involving the HPV vaccination from several different countries. In total slightly more than 40,000 patients. Half receiving the vaccination and half in the control group. Overall there were “serious adverse events” in 445 patients who received the vaccination. Now the problem that people like Fitton and Nicol seem to run into is that is the total of all serious adverse events that occur over the 18 to 35 months or so of the study, plus generally a 48 to 60 month follow. So you get in a car accident that counts. You electrocute yourself that counts. You go skydiving without a parachute that counts. But of course what intelligent people do is they compare the 445 patients with “serious adverse events” in the vaccination groups to the 446 patients in the same sized control groups and you say to yourself “those numbers are the exact same" so it is very unlikely that the vaccination is causing adverse reactions in patients over at least 5 ½ to 8 years. (And by the way, more people who were in the control groups died than the vaccination groups although, of course, both numbers were very low.)

If Fitton was honest then when he said here is a list of serious possible side effects listed by the FDA in association with getting the HPV vaccination, then he would also say here is a list of the equally serious possible side effects listed by the FDA in association with NOT getting the HPV vaccination. Then people could look at the lists and say “hey they are the same, but at the same time the studies show that the patients who get the vaccination have almost 100% protection from HPV, whereas the control group has none and the studies also show that the side effects which occur immediately after the vaccination are extremely rare and in each case VERY minor.” But, then again if you are not interested in being honest then you use the Fitton method.

liberal suporter said...

Thanks, WS