Mr. Tory, if I were your campaign manager, I would be advising you to declare that the Faith-based issue would be a vote of conscience based on the individual MPP and his or her constituents wishes; not unlike the federal vote on same-sex marriage. (Although some leaders did not allow a free vote for their caucus.)
This gets you off the hook, so to speak, and allows democracy to prevail.
Each MPP would be responsible to his or her constituents on the matter.
Please, John. Don't let Dalton get another majority.
At least don't give it to him gift-wrapped.
Thanks,
Joanne
* * * *
Update: It's been a busy day and I missed this, but Joan Tintor has the whole story here - McGuinty hits iceberg named Kwinter:
Good catch, Joan!
...Kwinter was the only member of the Liberal caucus to vote with the last conservative government for a tax credit for faith-based schools.
"Constituents in my riding supported it, and I'm their representative so I supported it," he said. "Certainly I would be a hypocrite to say that suddenly I don't think it's something that should be done."
Kwinter noted he has six grandchildren in faith-based schools.
Good catch, Joan!
* * * *
Licia Corbella says John Tory should have done his homework first - Lesson for Ontario.
Christina Blizzard has her own take on things - Loose Cannon Candidates Serve No One.
Post - Faith funding may sink Tory, expert says. (Yeah, that's news...)
John Tory should read Don Martin's column - "Liberal Help for Tory Majority". It relates to Federal Politics, but there are some valuable points in there for any politician:
John. Did you catch that? Policy moderation! Baby-step policy changes!
Star - Tory admits sales pitch lacking. Ya think???
Licia Corbella says John Tory should have done his homework first - Lesson for Ontario.
Christina Blizzard has her own take on things - Loose Cannon Candidates Serve No One.
Post - Faith funding may sink Tory, expert says. (Yeah, that's news...)
* * * *
John Tory should read Don Martin's column - "Liberal Help for Tory Majority". It relates to Federal Politics, but there are some valuable points in there for any politician:
The most insightful map to victory is a book written by University of Calgary professor Tom Flannagan, a friend of the Prime Minister's and Conservative campaign manager for a trio of elections.
His top ten commandments for happiness on the hustings include the need for party unity, policy moderation, ethnic outreach, show-no-mercy negative advertising, gagged-candidate discipline, baby-step policy changes, youth-friendly technology and improved communication.
John. Did you catch that? Policy moderation! Baby-step policy changes!
Star - Tory admits sales pitch lacking. Ya think???
45 comments:
I agree. It needs to be a free vote, so that individual MPP’s can vote their conscience on this issue. If I was John Tory’s campaign manager, I would have strongly advised him against putting a controversial issue, such as, Faith-Based funding in the PC party platform in the first place.
It has allowed the Ontario Liberals to weasel their way out of their accountability for McGuinty’s broken promises since the main campaign issue covered by the MSM have centered on Faith-Based funding.
Tony, right. I read somewhere that John Tory is a bit of a micro-manager. Perhaps he should humble himself a little and listen to what his people are telling him - if they are. If not, he needs new "people".
Im a bit confused by all of this.
Initially, i understood that this issue was to be looked at by Davis, with recommendations at some point.
Now it appears that it is a firm policy proposed by Tory.
Either way, it is not being explained.
There are other provinces to look at who do fund private schools with no adverse effects.
What strikes me is that Ontarians have no willingness to look beyond their borders for information.
Lee, I think John Tory was planning to study it with Bill Davis' help. I don't think he's changed that plan.
But the fear-mongering by the Liberal war-room seems to be working. That's all people are hearing. Maybe underneath, Ontarioans aren't as welcoming of a multicultural society as they appear.
Life has taken a very busy turn the past two weeks so I have not been able to write about this election as much as I would have liked.
I must say however that the notion that Mickey D will get another majority just by playing the 'fear of religion' card is sad.
It is sad for the Liberals.
It is sad for the province.
It is sad for the people who are being misled just so the Liberals can stay in power.
Nicol, I agree. Unfortunately, the Liberal spin-doctors are masters at this.
You know Joanne, I have full faith in John Tory, the Party, and it's platform, but I'm quickly losing faith in the way the campaign is being run.
Matt, I know what you mean. I concur 100%. Communications is a big problem. I don't mind being candid about that in this kind of a public forum. With any luck maybe someone from the Tory War Room will stumble on this.
Well said Joanne. The worst thing Tory could do right now is take a hardline stance against M.P.P.'s listening to their conservative constituents.
How can such an otherwise bright candidate be failing so poorly on this one issue?
Well Sara and I have been trying to lobby the war room to focus on health care and specifically Samantha Ambridge. They seem to be receptive of our concerns but unconvinced since they aren't doing it.
Tomorrow, if that hasn't changed, Sara and I are publishing a letter basically saying if you guys can't get your communications in order and start debating real issues like health care, I'm going to cease comment on the election until after the votes are counted. I think she may have mentioned that to you because I know she was planning to ask you about it.
It's just too damn disheartening watching us get pummeled in what should have been a cakewalk compared to the '06 campaign.
I think she may have mentioned that to you because I know she was planning to ask you about it.
No, I didn't get any message about that.
if you guys can't get your communications in order and start debating real issues like health care, I'm going to cease comment on the election until after the votes are counted.
Yup. Agreed. Mind you, I'm pulling for anyone-but-McGuinty, but not too keen to start bolstering the NDP...
Oh I think Tory could use your advise and more....... much more.
you are aware of Samantha's case, right? I basically told the party that if they cannot champion Samantha's cause, then I've got to and it will come at the expense of my mostly-positive commentary of them.
I have had two phone calls from two different people inside the war room at the beginning of the campaign thanking me profusely for my support (most recently after my "why i support fb funding and why you should too" article) so i was hoping that i could use that as leverage to a) steer the campaign towards a health-care debate and more importantly b) get samantha treatment and not allow anyone else to go through what she has.
my deadline for them is tomorrow at noon, when sara and i will publish letters explaining we have confidence in the party and the policy but we're trying to make a stand for what we feel is good. I somehow suspect this isn't making me many friends within the party.
It is not a question of Liberal spin. John Tory forfeited the votes of many Convervatives when he announced plans for faith-based schooling.
There are many of us who regard faith as merely another word for superstition.
The Liberal spin hasn't worked on me.
I was hesitant at first but when you listen to the truth and Tory explain what his plan is, it's NOWHERE near what the Liberal crew is spinning.
The Liberal lemmings(or weasels) only know one song. Here's the funny part.
Expert on the music-scene as Kinsella is, I wonder what he thinks would happen if a band new only one song, and played the same one each gig, each set, each time they performed.
They'd get boo'd off the stage, and join the ranks of the "one hit wonders" just like the Liberal Lemming Leader and his party will on election day.
Jim Pettit said...
It is not a question of Liberal spin. John Tory forfeited the votes of many Convervatives when he announced plans for faith-based schooling.
There are other ways of fortifying Conservative support without giving the Liberals ammunition to use against your party.
Joanne - you hit the nail squarely with "he needs new people". If he's surrounded by the same folks who ran the Eve's campaign, well, we know how that ended up.
Another tact that Tory could take, and one borrowed from Harper is to identify that we're still a party that welcomes diversity and differences of opinion, unlike the whipped and scripted Liberals, who as tables are turning are proving to be the angry, bitter party led by angry people(ring a bell with anyone? Same desciption was used by the MSM to describe Harper and his party once.)
K
Sounds like Tory is going to lose the house because he refuses to sell the car. Get a bus pass, brother! You can buy another car later.
If Ontarians are going to reelect a liar who skimmed them with the biggest tax increase in decades which now shows up as a surplus almost dollar for dollar all because of ONE MSM inflated issue (FBSF), then Ontarians are truly a bunch of morons...Except for Joanne, myself and the rest who supports the Blogging Tories living in ON of course ;-)
Tango Juliette sez:
Get a grip folks! Puh-LEEZE!!
Religion? Superstition? Who cares what YOU think it is? Who cares what I think it is?
The ONE thing that this Preem McGuinty DOES have, according to the UN, is one hell of an inequitable and unjust system of educational funding, and unfair employment opportunities for teachers, in Ontario.
Let’s not forget: this politician, Dalton, attended the Separate School System, his kids go to it, his wife teaches in it, and I think that the Ont Lib Party Whip is a former Principal within the Catholic system.
Only Catholic educators have the distinction of being able to teach in EITHER school system. The same does not often apply to non-Catholic teachers.
But we’re all buying into the McGuinty spin and we’re all starting to sound like we’ve been drinking their Kool-Aid, ‘cause we’re starting to spout a lot of their garbage. And this Pinnochio premier is the very same one on record as having been in favour of this sort of a move some few years back.
And yes -- lest our memories are as short as our loyalties, Dalton is the politician who was for this move before he was against this move. And Dalton was the politician who tried moving heaven and earth, and attempted to move the mountain to Mohammed, when he almost succeeded in bringing Sharia Law to Ontario.
And now we’ve got Ontario Conservatives declaring their willingness to start abandoning ship because of this weasel-ish Liberal yahoo? Puh-LEEZE!! John Tory is running in a riding currently held by this Lib government’s Minister of Education. He obviously feels strongly about this issue. We should all be supporting him, and we should all be doing our damndest to overthrow that arrogant “segregationist”, Pinnochio McGunty.
tj
Matt - my deadline for them is tomorrow at noon, when sara and i will publish letters explaining we have confidence in the party and the policy but we're trying to make a stand for what we feel is good. I somehow suspect this isn't making me many friends within the party.
Good for you. I admire you and Sara taking a stand like this. And for anyone who isn't familiar with this story please check it out here and here.
If he's surrounded by the same folks who ran the Eve's campaign, well, we know how that ended up
K - I have a bad feeling a lot of the same crew are involved.
Hello!! I'm here! I have good ideas!! Just ask me.
T.J. - Thanks for the reality check there. And just for the record, I'm supportive of FB funding as a matter of fairness and equal rights.
In fact, if this issue doesn't get addressed soon by the legislature, I'm sure someone will launch a Supreme Court challenge. And since Ontario is the only province that discriminates against every faith except Catholicism, I'm sure they will win.
Why spend all that money? Let's just do it.
Having said that, I think that John Tory really needs to let the individual candidates speak to this issue from their own hearts. I believe it should be a free vote, with plenty of time to look at all the angles.
As Kim Campbell once said, 'elections are not the time & place for serious discussions', or something to that effect.
Guess what? She was right!
Let me get this right….
Canada is a signatory to the UNs International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
In 1999 Ontario was found to be in violation of the International Covenant
and was instructed to provide an effective and enforceable remedy …
and given that to this date Ontario not provided an effective and enforceable remedy
Should Canada continue to be a signatory to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights?
Or do we get to pick and choose when to follow the convention like Iran and other despot banana republics?
If NO, then what should we do?
Abolishing Catholic Schools isn’t an option, because that would require a constitutional amendment and the Catholics won’t agree to forfeiting their rights so those putting this option of the table are being deceitful, divisive and subversive…but isn’t that what they are accusing those of religious faiths off being…..
But Ontario has nothing to learn from other provinces that fund other schools.
I’m inclined to think, Ontarians have some deep rooted phobias they need to come to terms with.
John Tory shouldn’t bend for the homophobes. They are a shame. It’s time for Ontario to move forward.
John Tory shouldn’t bend for the homophobes???
meanwhile, back in Caledonia....
Bluetech, did I miss something?
flip,flop,flip,flop - this just in.
Seems fellow Liberal Lemming Monte Kwinter has changed his mind about supporting faith based funding.
He's now against it.
flip,flop,flip,flop
Seems fellow Liberal Lemming Monte Kwinter has changed his mind about supporting faith based funding.
He's now against it.
Yesterday he was for it. I wonder what changed? I also wonder what his constituents will say...
No JoAnne...that was just a little tongue in cheek...
The bigger issues of law and order, and health care are being ignored, while everyone gets stirred up about education.
Bluetech - I hear ya. That's the whole problem here. I agree.
The worst thing Tory could do right now is take a hardline stance against M.P.P.'s listening to their conservative constituents
Too late. He already has. Remember the "Jack In A Box" comment?
Remember the "Jack In A Box" comment?
Yeah, things don't look good for Tory.
Interesting bit of insight here.
I agree with Jim Pettit. I am a conservative voter in Willowdale. Shiner needs my vote but won't get it due to this issue. It's not a question of Liberal spin - it's about not wanting to promote a society where Muslims go to Muslim schools, Jews go to Jewish schools, Jehovahs go to Jehovahs schools and at the end of the day question why we as a country are struggling to create a pan-Canadian identity. Liberal hypocrisy on this and every other issue makes me cringe and the thought of Dalton's reelection makes me gag but, as much as I like Tory's integrity, he has lost me. Guess I'm voting Green.
During the last federal election there were these rabid reformers voicing their displeasure with Harper for not forcing a vote on abortion and same-set unions (I’m trying not to offend the sensibilities of some Ontarians since they object to the term “same- sex marriage” since it doesn’t convey what a traditional marriage is but they’ll get used to it after a few more years of secularist indoctrination in the public schools)..i digress….so like the reform bunch that got pissed off at Harper, they had the option to vote Liberal or NDP or Green if they didn’t like Harper moving the party towards the center. It’s a democracy.
A lesson for Ontario from Alberta
http://www.edmontonsun.com/Comment/2007/09/26/4526698-sun.html
It's not a question of Liberal spin - it's about not wanting to promote a society where Muslims go to Muslim schools, Jews go to Jewish schools, Jehovahs go to Jehovahs schools and at the end of the day question why we as a country are struggling to create a pan-Canadian identity.
O.K. That's a fair point. But since that is already happening, why not invite them into the big tent by offering public money in exchange for using accredited teachers, Ontario curriculum and standardized testing?
Believe it or not there are some folks in Christian Schools that are against FB-funding because they feel it will mean too much government intervention and nosing around.
This of course underlies the reason that many parents want their children to attend a separate school in the first place.
They feel their kids will get a superior education.
I believe that testing has indeed proven thats the case.
In B.C. there are many children attending a Faith Based school who are not of that faith.
Its the QUALITY OF EDUCATION that matters.
True Blue…thanks for hosting this discussion….
To my total amazement, just like you say….there are Xians who presently send their kids religious schools and pay out of their pockets who will not support John Tory.
THEY ARE VOTING GREEN
http://www.owensoundsuntimes.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=708517&auth=By+JONATHON+JACKSON
Our public school board trustee has been giving speeches and sending letters to the editor on behalf of the One School System Network saying we can no longer afford to publicly fund Catholic schools, never mind other faith based schools.
The OSSN- A “coalition of secularist, humanists, and individual Public school trustees have united with Leonard Baak’s Education Equality in Ontario and the Green Party of Ontario to create the One School System Network (OSSN) in order to campaign for one single secular English and Francophone public system in Ontario.
A OSSN spokesperson wrote in the durham region press:
“Let's be clear, public funding for faith-based school systems is a human rights violation.”
http://www.newsdurhamregion.com/news/opinion/letters/article/86390
That is an outright misrepresentation of what the United Nations Human Rights Committee determined. The committee ruled that in Ontario funding only the schools of one religious faith is discriminatory.
Please someone explain this to me. Why would these non-Catholic Xians be supporting the Greens when the Green platform is to END all funding for faith based schools.
The Xians might as well jump into bed with the godless commies.
HELP!!!!!!!!!!please can someone make sense of this
Ron M
Please someone explain this to me. Why would these non-Catholic Xians be supporting the Greens when the Green platform is to END all funding for faith based schools.
You're right. That doesn't make any sense at all! I'll have to look into that. Thanks.
BTW, Blogger seems to be having some issues today, so thanks for your patience.
Hi Joanne,
I hope there is some turn around this election OR probably more realistically, McGuinty is short of 54 seats. I never seen a provincial election that made my stomach literally turn. It has been disgusting how John Tory a good leader has been demonized the way he has. On my new blogsite, I have a stern warning for Ontario voters and I stand by it.
Hi Felix. I'm feeling pretty sick about it too, but I don't think all of it is due to the Tory-bashing of the Liberal war room.
I am quite frustrated that John Tory picked this very conscientious issue of FB Funding to make his stand on. Mixing religion & politics is never a good idea; especially during an election campaign.
Having said that, I think it's an issue of fairness and equality. It's just that the timing's a bit off. He could have framed it as an issue 'to investigate'. But he's not leaving any wiggle-room and that could be his downfall.
The thought of four more years of McGuinty makes me want to run to the bathroom, to put it politely.
"There are other ways of fortifying Conservative support without giving the Liberals ammunition to use against your party."
Except it wasn't Jimmy and guys like me who did so. Blame Mr. Tory and his stupid policies. He claims he knew they would be unpopular, but he's right, dammit, and screw us voters who disagree.
So, a likely PC minority, or possibly better, will now be a struggle to hold to a Lib minority.
all these guys saying they are conservatives but will now vote Liberal on account of FBF are a joke or Liberals trolling.
yes many are disappointed me included...this amounts to a tactical error...but i don't expect John Tory to be less of a man than he has proven himself to be...
Tory is standing on principle. He's on the right side of the issue at the wrong place and time. Whose to blame? Does it matter now?
as for the xenophobes, get over your phobias. for the next four years look in the mirror every morning and say "Dalton may have lied to me, but I voted for him anyway."
He's on the right side of the issue at the wrong place and time.
That is really well said.
Great letter in today's Record on that note:
As we head toward the Oct. 10 election there are a couple of issues grabbing the attention of voters: one of them education.
All parties promise to bolster the public system. Then there is the promise by the Progressive Conservative party to consider funding faith-based schools as a matter of justice. This is raising the ire of many voters and some of the media. Some see it as criticism of the public system. Funding these schools is downright offensive to some and scary to others who feel that the public system will be deprived of funds that maybe channelled to private schools.
But let's look at it realistically. The 50,000-plus students in faith-based schools are saving the government $450 million every year. Plus at least another 50,000 students in other alternate schools and the government saves about $1 billion a year. The parents of these 100,000-plus students pay taxes to support the public system.
If all those students would one day show up at the doorsteps of the public system it could break under the strain of having to supply the extra funds and resources.
And remember, we cannot entertain a democracy without the right to disagree. We have among us groups of people, law-abiding citizens, who differ from the majority (in this case the public system). In a legal way they will promote systems and ideas which ultimately will benefit this country, no matter what some bigoted zealots think of it.
Hilbert Rumph, Drayton
"He's on the right side of the issue at the wrong place and time.
That is really well said."
I really disagree with this, and if you've read my past comments, you know I'm no Lib troll.
He's on the wrong side of this issue, and so is McGuinty. DM's position is possibly even worse. FB funding should be phased out, not expanded.
Möbius, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion. And I appreciate you voicing it here.
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