Friday, October 12, 2007

Dalton McDoublecross

All those Catholic teachers and parents that supported Dalton McGuinty may live to regret that decision before the next four years are up - H/T Brian Lemon and ASTTR.


Because Liberal governments don't usually aim for the right thing; they try to do the popular thing.

40 comments:

Anonymous said...

Serves them right.

Christian Conservative said...

I figured that supporters of Catholic education would have clued in that once the Faith-based Education issue was let out of the bottle, the only way they would be able to save their system was to support Tory... and I think that's what Tory was banking on.

Too bad they didn't clue in until it was too late.

Matt said...

Joanne, don't forget that OECTA (Catholic Teachers Union) was paying teachers in tax dollars to volunteer for the Liberals.

CC, I'm not sure if I ever read your position on it although I know you were in support of the theory of JT's plan but not his approach to solving the discrimination. Just wondering your opinion on funding Catholic schools as they currently are - yay or nay?

Jason Bo Green said...

Fund none or fund all.

This was my main reason for not supporting Tory - I support religious freedom, the right to believe in and study whatever you want. But please, get your damned hand out of my pocket.

Matt said...

Jason, not a single dime of your taxes goes to funding Catholic schools (unless you specifically ask for that filling out your tax forms) so I don't understand what your complaint is. By default it goes to the public board.

Matt said...

Fund none or fund all.

Tory's position was to fund them all, which is one of your two options, so why couldn't you support that?

KC said...

Not fund all or fund none. Fund none. Its the only real option IMHO.

Zac said...

I can see this being put towards a referendum, much like it was in Newfoundland.

If we're going to have to face a "fund all or fund none" dichotomy, I think Ontario will opt to fund none.

Jason Bo Green said...

I'd be content with a Fund All approach, but my strong preference is Fund None.

Really, the actual truth is that it's a two-way race between the NDP and the Liberals in my riding. So I voted for Cheri DiNovo. I'd prefer to vote for DiNovo for local rep and Tory for Premier, I guess. But we don't have that system.

If only Catholic taxpayers are paying for their schoolboards, then what was the big issue about them in the election? Can't Buddhist and Baptist taxpayers pay for their own schoolboards?

Matt said...

Really, the actual truth is that it's a two-way race between the NDP and the Liberals in my riding. So I voted for Cheri DiNovo.

Can't blame you, I'd have voted for whichever party was more likely to knock off my Liberal incumbent. Thankfully that was the PC candidate.

If only Catholic taxpayers are paying for their schoolboards, then what was the big issue about them in the election?

You're close. Only taxpayers who explicitly check "send my taxes to the Catholic board" will have their taxes fund that system. Faith of the taxpayer has nothing to do with it.
To answer your question, I'm still trying to figure out what the issue was. There wasn't enough time to have an intellectual public debate on the policy for one, so I would say it was only an issue for people who don't know how the system works.


Can't Buddhist and Baptist taxpayers pay for their own schoolboards?

Yeah, I think so, but apparently most of Ontario doesn't.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

If only Catholic taxpayers are paying for their schoolboards, then what was the big issue about them in the election?

That's a good question. Why indeed?

So, if there were a referendum as Zac suggested, and it was decided to just fund one system, then the Catholics would have that option taken away. Everyone would have to have their taxes going to the public system. And the Catholics along with everyone else would also have to pay for their own schools.

I agree with Matt that the Catholic system is generally superior, but it still isn't right in my opinion to discriminate.

Anonymous said...

How about we do what was done in Alberta and the gov't enact Charter legislation that would allow be one system and dictate criteria by which schools MUST operate?

It's working there and in a lot of other places in North America.

The best thing about charters is that it gives parents more choices and allows parents to vote with their feet as to which school they choose.

Bad schools can be closed if they don't attract parents and students.

Matt said...

Here's something I wrote on my site, linked by Joanne. Can anyone answer which of the two ways I said would be necessary in order to scrap the Catholic system? I knew at one point in the campaign but seem to have forgotten. It might even be both, but I cannot remember.

Constitutional changes (to scrap funding the Catholic boards) that affect only one province do not need the consent of other provinces, and would be extremely easy to accomplish. The constitutional change that would be required to end funding for the Catholic public school boards would require simply a legislature vote, or an Ontario referendum (I cannot recall which, sorry).

Joanne (True Blue) said...

It's my understanding that defunding the Catholic system would require a constitutional change which has been done in some other provinces.

Messy, but do-able.

Obviously this question is not going to go away. My prediction is that Dalton McGuinty will move on to federal politics in a year or so, and four years from now we will have a single public system that either funds no faith-based schools at all, or else possibly the charter school concept which is very successful in Alberta.

John Tory's legacy will be that he had some very good ideas that the Liberal government will actually put into action within this mandate.

Anonymous said...

How about opting for the Freelance School option.

This would solve all Ontario's problems.

This is how it works.

Let individual schools receive their own funding directly without going through the school boards.

That way we move to one system by essentially only eliminating the middleman(hugely expensive school boards), but still keep the MOE for setting curriculum, financing but the rest is all done on site.

Go to the Society for Quality Education website to find out more about how this will work.

If you think about it if we eliminated just the school boards we would be under one umbrella

Joanne (True Blue) said...

How about opting for the Freelance School option.

Oh yeah. The unions would love that one.

Matt said...

It's my understanding that defunding the Catholic system would require a constitutional change which has been done in some other provinces.

Messy, but do-able.


No, no, no - not messy at all, unfortunately. This type of constitutional change could be done almost overnight because it only affects one province. I'm just not sure if it requires merely a legislative vote or a public referendum on the topic.

Matt said...

By which I mean a provincial referendum

Joanne (True Blue) said...

I'm just not sure if it requires merely a legislative vote or a public referendum on the topic.

Does anyone know an MPP well enough to try to get this information?

Anonymous said...

what do you mean Joanne? "the unions would love that one"?

All school boards do now where teachers are concerned is negotiate their contracts...ooops my mistake, actually that hasn't yet happened under the Liberals who opted to move to provincial bargaining without the boards....who needs them. Not the teacher unions for sure...not now since McGuinty gave them the run of the COT.

Considering that over 70% of our education taxdollar goes to salaries school boards are charged with operating their schools with less than 30%? Does it make any sense at all to have massive boards and a dwindling student population.

Moving to ONE SYSTEM would also in my mind spell the end of 74+ boards and authorities in Ontario...hey, maybe THAT'S McGuinty's secret plan after all.....get rid of school boards.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Moving to ONE SYSTEM would also in my mind spell the end of 74+ boards and authorities in Ontario...hey, maybe THAT'S McGuinty's secret plan after all.....get rid of school boards.

It's not a bad idea, but don't forget that the school boards are unionized too; although their union isn't nearly as powerful as the teachers' unions.

Anonymous said...

only the secretaries, clerics and custodians are unionized. Not directors, supers. or trustees.

Also, much of what is done at board level is a drastic duplication of what's being done on 22 floors of the Mowat block anyway.

Don't put it past McGuinty to move to a system much like the healthcare LHINS for education too. Think about it. I'm betting he goes this route for boards too.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

How would busing be handled?

bluetech said...

matt...your comment @3:40..
Could someone clarify this. My understanding is that municipal taxes are 'declared' as supporting seperate or public boards. The provincial money is all in one pot.
Let's start following the money.
Just recently we have had some amazing shrines built in our area that are being used for Catholic schooling. One architect has been 'expressing' his creativity at the expense of the school boards. But hey...they don't seem to be short on funds.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

The provincial money is all in one pot.
Let's start following the money.


Yes, indeed. I hope somebody with inside information enlightens us here.

Anonymous said...

"how would busing be handled"

Busing can be run as a consortium between schools through the bus companies themselves. There are no buses parked at our board offices.
The drivers are from around the region.

There's a busing software package now that boards use that can be done by one person at a central dispatch.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Busing can be run as a consortium between schools through the bus companies themselves

I used to work as a temp in the busing department of the local board. (Not unionized)

We had to field hundreds of calls every day from parents with questions, but I suppose that all that could be done by the compantes themselves, or else a central agency (maybe outsourced to India? lol!)

Ruth said...

Busing in our area, in the country, has all the kids riding the same bus. They drop off some at the public high school, some at the public elementary school and then some at the Catholic separate school. The Catholic high school is in another town, so they bus separately. Busing is not a problem.

Matt said...

bluetech @ 5:28

I'm not too sure. I pay municipal taxes through my rent so I haven't actually seen the forms.

Are you sure the provincial money goes into the same cookie jar? I've never heard that before but I'd be curious to know for certain.

So unfortunately, no, I can't clarify your confusion but I hope we can find out EXACTLY how it works.

Torian said...

sorry to hijack, but cfrb is reporting an ipsos/canwest poll just released that has the conservatives at 40% and the libs at 28%...except I can't find the release.

Torian said...

ok...found it at global :)

Torian said...

http://www.canada.com/globaltv/national/story.html?id=ea764103-c867-46df-9658-fb4c9714a2dc&k=7783

Jason Bo Green said...

Okay, I'm more confused about the funding of Catholic schools than I was two months ago, lol. Hopefully someone can help my poor brain figure it out. ;)


Hmm, interesting, Torian. I don't think there'll be an election - even at a dead heat in the polls, I don't think Dion is going to be silly enough to go for it. We shall see soon, though.

Torian said...

jason,

think dion is screwed either way.

he's taken a stand on kyoto and afghanistan. if the throne speech does not bring him what he wants, and he does not vote it down, he looks weak, and it will look like he is not principled on either stand. It will further the "not a leader" impression and his numbers might plumment more

If he takes on the dare and votes the speech down, he risks getting pummelled in an election. Of course ANYTHING can happen in an election, and numbers can change.

What would you do?

bluetech said...

Joanne...just read an interesting comment re: Conservative voters.
It went something like this: Mulroney and Tory experienced a loss because conservative voters want the candidates to 'earn' the vote, lib voters just blindly vote no matter what.
(David Hand on SDA)
Interesting concept
What do you think?

BTW where do we research the funding for schools?It really is remarkable that this is so complicated...we really don't know where our taxes go.

Torian said...

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/funding/0708/funding.pdf

now, whether one can trust these numbers is a different story...

liberal supporter said...

Wow torian, no wonder the edu.gov.on.ca site was so slow with you rummaging around there like I was. I found other docs, but the one you cite doesn't explain how the municipal side comes into it. At least I couldn't find anything.

It used to be that municipal property taxes funded all schools, so richer areas did better, but there was provincial funding to prop up the poorer areas. Now, the province funds all areas on a per pupil basis, and I think collects some of that through municipal property tax. Presumably the "public/separate" checkbox determines enrollment projections.

What is not clear to me is how the municipal rate is set. If the municipality decides, why not go very low and let the province fund more?

Torian said...

ls,

sorry :)

Yeah, lack of info for sure.

the thing that sticks out is the huge increase in class size reduction...now I could be wrong, but would the only thing needed to be spent here would be the salaries for the additional teachers needed?

another thing i noticed is that enrollment is dropping in the elementary schools since 2003

02/03: 1,323,942
03/04: 1,316,404
04/05: 1,300,574
05/06: 1,286,401
06/07 (revised): 1,265,477
07/08 (projected)1,250,653

Anonymous said...

jojo,

time to lift your head up, get out of those provincial doldrums,

AND JOIN THE FEDERAL POLITICAL SCENE PARTY!

I LOVE GLOATING!!!!!!!!!

Joanne (True Blue) said...


time to lift your head up, get out of those provincial doldrums,


Oh yeah! I'm celebrating at CBL's tonight!!