Monday, March 24, 2008

The 'Save Brenda / Slam the Feds'-fest continues

According to CP, Brenda Martin is outraged that Conservative MP Helena Guergis 'partied' while Ms. Martin was "languishing" in her Mexican prison cell.

Jason Kenney is quoted in the Chronicle Herald report with a possible explanation:

Martin's criminal case was put on hold for two months until a Mexican judge ruled on a constitutional challenge raised by her lawyer.

Conservative MP Jason Kenney last week told The Canadian Press that Guergis couldn't do much until the judge ruled on the court challenge.

``It was really a bit of a moot question at that point,'' Kenney said.

Well, I'm no legal expert, so it's hard for me to make a judgment on the situation. A bit of moral support couldn't have hurt though.

In any case Jason Kenney's recent visit has apparently escaped the minds of the Brenda supporters who have set up a website dedicated to her release. - Former PM Paul Martin is the only politician mentioned on the front page as having visited her:

...Recently, Brenda has been on suicide watch, having been removed from the general prison population several times now. There has been extensive national media coverage on Brenda, who has been emotionally supported by her childhood friend Debra Tieleman. The Government of Canada has failed to act in intervening in this case, despite pleas from citizens around Canada, opposition MPs, Brenda’s mother and Brenda herself. Recently, Brenda was visited by former Prime Minister Paul Martin in prison to offer support.

Brenda feels that if she is not helped now, with the support of the Canadian Government, she feels she will perish in prison...




However, Brenda Martin herself now seems to be fearing a backlash from the Boycott Mexico bandwagon which some over-zealous MP's had considered mounting.


Just a small suggestion here, but my feeling is that Brenda Martin would garner a lot more support if she and her cheerleaders attempted to tone down the partisan attacks just a tad. By trying to shame the government, they've actually ended up alienating a large segment of Canadian sympathy.

Let's hear the facts. Let's try to stay focussed and rational.

But partisan sniping is going to come back to bite the opposition, and perhaps even Brenda Martin herself.


* * * *
Update: Mexican officials asked for $500K to free Brenda Martin, says her former boss - 570 News:

...Alyn Waage, who is in a U.S. prison over an Internet scam, says Martin told him of the demand in a letter.

He says it's unlikely Mexican authorities will release Martin from the Puente Grande women's prison near Guadalajara until he pays up...

Arthur Weinreb - Calls to boycott Mexico - a couple of years too late.

Calgary Herald - Martin snared in bribe-stained justice system: Waage.

It just gets more and more convoluted.

The Politic - Brenda Martin and Canadians detained abroad.


Tuesday Update
: National Post - Mexico holding Martin over bribe: con man.

But Orville isn't buying it.

73 comments:

Kingston said...

Stop reading my mind Joanne. You have summed up my thoughts rather nicely.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Thanks Kingston. I steered clear of posting all your thoughts... ;)

Gayle said...

"Just a small suggestion here, but my feeling is that Brenda Martin would garner a lot more support if she and her cheerleaders attempted to tone down the partisan attacks just a tad. By trying to shame the government, they've actually ended up alienating a large segment of Canadian sympathy."

First, you must be aware that she already has a segment of sympathetic Canadians in her corner.

Second, what she is asking for here is something that she has a right to, as a Canadian citizen. She does not have to "earn" that right by cozying up to the government. She is entitled to their support even as she criticizes them. That is something we are all entitled to as citizens of this country.

I really find the suggestion that she has to play some little game for Harper in order to gain his support repugnant.

Anonymous said...

This poll appears at the Globe&Mail -

Do you agree with the way Canada has handled Brenda Martin's case so far?

64% 5603 votes - YES
36% 3128 votes - NO


-Larry

Anonymous said...

"Second, what she is asking for here is something that she has a right to, as a Canadian citizen. She does not have to "earn" that right by cozying up to the government. She is entitled to their support even as she criticizes them. That is something we are all entitled to as citizens of this country."

There it is - she is "entitled to her entitlements", therefore all facts must be ignored.
DWT

fh said...

liberals are happy to keep us worrying about Brenda Martin
you can bet they aren't worried about her

MaryT
mentioned a scheme by Liberals to threaten new immigrants ie if they did not vote Liberal for the rest of their life the bad nasty conservatives would make them pay back their settlement loans which the Liberals would not

I could never understand why the new Canadians always ALWAYS voted Liberal

Could this be why?

this warrants investigation by the RCMP

if anyone has more information please come forward

Anonymous said...

It appears her friends have done Ms Martin a diservice by playing the anti-Canadian Government game.
All legal systems grind slowly and when appeals and challenges are invoked that adds to the time. Brenda and her friends obviously do not understand international diplomacy so while they do Brenda damage they can be forgiven.
To run with the Liberal party hucksters has influenced me to reconsider supporting Ms Martin's cause. I know that The Liberal party will do anything to "get at" the Government of Canada. The political games truly hurt Ms Martin
I wish her well, but I will never side with Political one up manship.

Alberta Girl said...

I went to the website - YIKES!!!


While I applaud any effort to "help" a friend - this one has become over the top.

For someone who didn't want to be a "political pawn", notice how the Liberals have done just that.

My take - we ARE heading for an election. The Liberals have been "saving" all these little (and they are little) "scandals" to use against Stephen Harpers government to take the focus off the fact that Canada is actually being governed the way that most people seem to like.

Mark my words - we will be heading for an election. I just haven't figured out how Bob Rae will become the leader yet?

wilson said...

Canadians have enough common sense to understand that a person working illegally in another country, is taking a big risk working for someone who is breaking the laws of the land.
Especially in Mexico, where you are guilty until proven innocent.

Even with the Mexican police on her tail, and her ex-boss convicted and jailed for money laundering,
Brenda chose to stay in Mexico, illegally.
Innocent or guilty, that was really a risky choice.

Is the evidence against Brenda strong enough that she thought her only out was a constitutional challenge and Canadian govt intervention?

Ardvark said...

Kenney goes to Mexico and it gets labeled as a dog and pony show and a photo op. Guergis goes down and she gets criticized for not doing a photo op by the same people who went after Kenney for doing just that.

Confusing no?

Not if you are a Liberal I guess.

Gayle said...

"There it is - she is "entitled to her entitlements", therefore all facts must be ignored."
DWT

Thanks for that "input". Try something substantive next time.

The facts are that she is claiming she is innocent, and she has an affidavit from the guilty party to back that up. Whether or not you agree does not change the fact that she has a right, as a Canadian citizen, to assistance from the Canadian government. She does not forfeit that right just because she criticizes said Canadian government.

"Is the evidence against Brenda strong enough that she thought her only out was a constitutional challenge and Canadian govt intervention?"

Way to miss the point there Wilson. Perhaps you missed the stories about corruption and bribery allegations.

The way some of you leap to Harper's defence like he is some child being picked on by a schoolyard bully is quite amusing.

Gayle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

http://www.scoreboard-canada.com/cin-clarkeinterview.htm
this article has some very good points in it ...I have never voted Lib. and will never , I can see the need for change .There are too many back room deals that go on and we the people of this country are given the choice ..I am not sure I like the choices I have ...katou

Blue Magic said...

This CP headline is a joke. "Tory MP partied in Mexico while Canadian in nearby jail"

What a smear job on Helena Guergis. Then you find these comments from people at the function.

``She was only there for a little over an hour. It wasn't a long time,''

What a party. settle down Ms. Guergis, meeting Ex Canadian Pats for an hour, stop the rock star parties.

Good post Joanne, and good blogging on this whole ordeal.

Blue Magic said...

Advark says
"Kenney goes to Mexico and it gets labeled as a dog and pony show and a photo op. Guergis goes down and she gets criticized for not doing a photo op by the same people who went after Kenney for doing just that."

good post. That about sums it up. No matter what the Government does, they are wrong.

Anonymous said...

Gayle - I'm entitled to my "input", substantive or not.

A letter from her former employer does not make her innocent. He has a hidden agenda of his own.


http://www.thewantednovel.com/edjournal.html
'Under a plea bargain agreement, Cary Waage is co-operating with the American authorities and is prepared to testify against his father in return for a reduced sentence.

"Alyn told Cary to testify against him," insists Smith, who regularly communicated with Alyn Waage while he was in jail in Guadalajara. "He said: 'I'm dying in jail anyway so he might as well help himself as much as he can.'

DWT

wilson said...

Also confusing, Liberals want PMSH to directly intervene in another countries judicial system,
but rant on and on about how PMSH is intervening, via appointments, in the Cdn judical system!!

Brenda Martin is getting her entitlements.

Perhaps Gayle would like to explain to us why the Liberals watched while William Sampson and Arar endured torture and did nothing...

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Larry, thanks for the poll alert.

Updated results available here. (Don't forget to vote)

Alberta Girl said...

"Whether or not you agree does not change the fact that she has a right, as a Canadian citizen, to assistance from the Canadian government."

Gayle - Get REAL!!!!

NO ONE is saying she does not have the right to assistance from the Canadian Government. She has been getting "assistance" for over two years while they have been trying to negotiate with the Mexican Authorities. Much as the left would like to believe, we do not just call up another country and say "Let our people go". This has to go through diplomatic channels and depending on what the charges are and how that country sees the laws being broken in their country, it takes time.

You of all people should understand that when someone breaks the law and gets arrested, no matter in what counry, there are channels to go through.

Please do not take those of us who see this as a political ploy by the Liberals to smear the Tories as somehow saying that a Canadian doesn't deserve to be assisted by our government (if they are innocent - which, we only have her word and the word of the con man she worked for - not exactly a strong case in my mind)

Joanne (True Blue) said...

I went to the website - YIKES!!!

Has anyone found a photo of Brenda in typical prison garb yet?

wilson said...

Perhaps YOU are missing the point Gayle, and prefer to sling mud instead of facts.

Brenda is getting everything she is entitled to from the Canadian government.

She is not being harmed or misstreated in another country, her human rights not threatened.
(as was the case under Liberal rule, for Sampson and Arar)

She was offered a list by the Cdn Embassy, from which to choose a criminal lawyer, and rejected it.

She and the Mexican authorities have been contacted over 100 times in less than 24 months.
That averages out to once every 2 weeks.

She will get a trial.

If convicted, she can be moved to a Canadian jail, where she will be entitled to only serving 1/2 of her time.

Just what entitlements, exactly, is Brenda NOT getting Gayle?
Care to make a list for us?

Fay said...

I feel sorry for Helena Guergis in all this. It appears she is being unfairly penalized by Canadian Press. No wonder so few women enter politics.
At Christmas the MSM did everything they could to protect Ruby Dhalla from negative press in India.
Not all women in politics are treated equal by MSM!!!

Gayle said...

Maybe some of you should go back and read what I wrote.

With respect, Joanne was wrong when she suggested that Brenda Martin should not criticize the government if she wants the assistance of that government.

My point is that she is entitled to that assistance whether or not she criticizes them, or whether or not she is guilty.

Some of you seem to miss the point that her mental health is being impacted by her incarceration. This means she makes choices and says things that may not be in her best interest. Perhaps you should not judge her so harshly in the circumstances. Sadly, it seems that anyone who dares to criticize Harper must be denigrated by his devout supporters.

This is not some great media conspiracy to attack Harper. People are rightly concerned about the way our present government is prepared to ignore or forget that Canadian citizens abroad are still Canadian citizens. I know it makes life easier for you to believe that any attack on Harper is part of your perception of media bias, but at some point you are going to have to accept the fact he is not perfect, and he deserves to be criticized.

wilson said...

So true Fay.
Being a Conservative and a women, the double whammy.
msm prefers their women politicians to be Liberals.
Remember how msm was more interested in Rona's hair than her enviro policy.

OMMAG said...

Yes I alway feel inclined to feel sorry for people who are patently ingrates and architects of their own suffering.
So much so that I almost paused for a moment to consider Martin's plight while enjoying my Easter feast.

Almost... and then it occurred to me.

She has SO MANY supporters .... they MUST ALL be down in Mexico right this minute to be with her ... sharing her pain and suffering while relieving her anguish with gifts of food and such....!
No?

wilson said...

Well Gayle, Brenda's mother and friends are not having mental health issues.
What excuse are you going to make for them and their govt bashing?

Was Brenda having mental health issues when she decided to remain an illegal and work in Mexico, instead of come home to the safety of Canada?

The Cdn government is not responsible for the mistakes Brenda made.

Still waiting for that list of entitlements that Brenda is NOT receiving from PMSH.

Alberta Girl said...

"Some of you seem to miss the point that her mental health is being impacted by her incarceration"

Um Gayle - how many of us would NOT be impacted by incarceration in another country!!

The FACTS though are that SHE MADE CHOICES WHICH GOT HER WHERE SHE IS TODAY!!!

But that is the Liberal mentality - no matter what bad choices you make, someone else must bear the responsiblity for your life, it is up to someone else - preferably the government to go in an rescue you from your own bad choices.

And there you have it Gayle, the difference between Conservative and Liberal

Conservatives believe that if you make a choice, there are consequences to every choice.

While Liberals believe that there are consequences, they do not accept that you should be responsible for those choices.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

With respect, Joanne was wrong when she suggested that Brenda Martin should not criticize the government if she wants the assistance of that government.

Gayle, I never said that Brenda 'shouldn't' criticize the government.

I said that the consequences are that many previous supporters (myself included) now feel that she is showing unnecessary partisanship and lack of gratitude for the efforts that are being made on her behalf.

She can trash the Government all she wants, but you know what Gayle? I have every right not to like it and to withdraw my support.

To put it simply, Brenda Martin is not entitled to my support.

Gayle said...

"What excuse are you going to make for them and their govt bashing?"

none - nor do they need any excuse. they are bashing the government because they feel the government has not done enough to protect a Canadian citizen - and I happen to agree with them.

(The point about her mental illness has to do with choices she is making in her legal defence, which may or may not be in her best interest - I do not know because I am not a lawyer in Mexico so I am in no position to judge them, and neither are any of you).

"Was Brenda having mental health issues when she decided to remain an illegal and work in Mexico, instead of come home to the safety of Canada?'

So completely irrelevant to the point. Do you know of some law or principle that says Canadian citizens lose their rights as Canadian citizens once they work in another country illegally?

Joanne - she does not need your support. She needs, and is entitled to, Harper's.

You people get all your knickers in a knot as soon as the Great Man is criticized. You immediately fall into defence mode. It is so transparent. Nothing about Brenda Martin's case has changed since you first posted about it, but the fact she criticizes Harper means that not only does she lose your support, she now merits post after post denigrating her and anyone who supports her.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Gayle, where did I say that the Government shouldn't ensure that justice is done and that she gets a fair trial?

Nothing about Brenda Martin's case has changed since you first posted about it,

Gayle, a lot of questions have surfaced since then such as why was she working without a work visa, and didn't she even have a clue that something was not quite right regarding Waage's business dealings?

Alberta Girl said...

"Joanne - she does not need your support. She needs, and is entitled to, Harper's."

Gayle- Stephen Harper has said she has his support - they have been working on this for two years - where do you get the impression she is no supported by our government - because the Liberals and the MSM say she is not?? Bollocks!

Also - "You people get all your knickers in a knot as soon as the Great Man is criticized. You immediately fall into defence mode.

PULEEEZE Gayle - this has nothing to do with "defense" of Stephen Harper - this is looking at the fact in a story and saying that critizing the government in the way that is going on (Helena G partying while Brenda sits in jail to name one Headline) is over the top partisanship and you are just as guilty of partisanship in your defence of the Liberal party.

Of course I am defending the Tories in this regard because they are being unfairly smeared by a Liberal party out to gain political points by using a jailed woman to evoke sympathy.

It didn't work with Schrieber ( an old white guy who had his own storied past ), it didn't work with Cadman (a dead MP caught on tape refuting the very thing he was being accused of), so why not try it with a jailed woman.

The Liberal party will stoop to anything to take the focus off the good governance of the Tory party.

Anonymous said...

rcgizyaOK Gayle.
I wont argue Ms. Martins "rights".
But what exactly is she (and you) asking the Government to do?
-Lee-

Tony said...

The other question is why did Brenda Martin accept money that was not her’s from Mr Waage, in addition to the money that she was owed?

Why did Ms Martin feel compelled to deposit money that was not her’s (thousands of dollars) in several bank accounts for Mr Waage after he had fired her? Does this not indicate some kind of financial relationship between Ms Martin and Mr Waage?

skuleman said...

If I was in the Mexican judiciary right now, I'd simply summarily convict her of being in the country illegally, give her the maximum sentence, and either drop the other charges or allow her to serve them concurrently (an option I don't believe Mexico has). That would satisfy their "need" for justice in the money-laundering case and would effectively shut everyone up, because unless she can produce a back-dated work-permit there's no real issue whether she's guilty of working without a proper visa.

maryT said...

Thousands of cdns have been to Mexico in the last 2 yrs, having fun, partying, getting married, and getting murdered, while poor Brenda was in jail. Was Brenda mentioned in any of the above stories. Canadians have many freedoms, and one of those freedoms is to make stupid decisions. Another of our freedoms is to tell that person, live with it.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

More good questions, Tony.

What do you guys make of the story in the update at the end of this post?

May said...

What I've said on Tony's viewpoint still stands...It's amazing how quickly the MSM dropped this story once they realized Brenda Martin was not what she seemed. Even if the liberals are trying to play this up, this dog won't hunt. I noticed the comments in the last CTV “dog and pony” article (before they closed them) reflected a sharp decline in sympathy and increase in suspicion. I think Brenda Martin's ungrateful comments made many people realize (myself included) that once again Canada was being used for convenience.

I still believe Mexico is corrupt and the jail conditions unacceptable and I still want Brenda Martin to be brought back to Canada; perhaps to serve in a Canadian jail. That said; I no longer trust her word. However, there is a much more pressing question I should ask. What is happening to the other 20 Canadians held in Mexico? What is happening to the 1,750 Canadians held in foreign countries? Why doesn't the media care about them? I know I care about them.

paulsstuff said...

Maybe Martin is bashing Harper because Dion has promised to appoint her to run as a candidate in Saskatchewan in the next election:0)

Sorry Gayle, but you are the one missing the point. Dan McTeague goes down and does a photo-op with her and it's wonderful. Paul Martin pays a visit and it's wonderful. Jason Kenney goes down and it's a dog and pony show. I would think that any help would be appreciated, instead of only showing appreciation to Liberals.

As for the reference to Guergis visit, it was Martin who demanded a challenge on a constitutional basis.

And:

1. Martin was given a list of lawyers from the Canadian Embassy, yet chose to ignore it.

2. Martin was given $25,000 severance pay, and amazingly gave $10,000 back to her employer for "investment"(the one who fired her).

3. Her former employer pleaded guilty to running a scam. Perhaps the $10,000 was used in running the scam.

4. Over 100 calls in regards to her case since her arrest, yet she states the Canadian government has done nothing?

5. Martin was told that if she was convicted, they would apply to have her sent to Canada, where she would have to spend half her sentence. Her reply, I'm not going to Canada to go in jail.

6. Nobody knows wether she is innocent or guilty. The Mexican government would have provided some proof of the charges she faces.

7. If you really want to accept the testimony of her former employer, who pleaded guilty, then perhaps you should also accept the testimony of Brault, Guite, LeFleur and others, convicted in Adscam and who testified that Liberals, including Chretien and Martin were aware of what was going on.

A little off topic Joanne, but the local paper in Ajax is reporting roughly 100 nurses are to be layed off. As I understand it, this is also going to occur at some other Ontario hospitals. Yet nary a mention in the Star, Sun, Globe, etc. And to think McGuinty is the one who has asved health care in Ontario.

By my guess, that $1 million the Ontario cricket club got would have employed 12 nurses for the year. And theirs still that other $31 million given out. Sheesh.

Anonymous said...

I don't want to appear too callous but didn't she tearfully say a few weeks ago that she'd kill herself if she had to spend even one more night in jail??
NeilD

Anonymous said...

NeilD

Its quite obvious that she's either a liberal or at least a liberal puppet. You can't really expect a liberal to keep a promise can you?

Gayle said...

paul - my point was a narrow one. It is rather typical that my point gets expanded to one where you feel you have a leg to stand on, rather than limiting your comments to what I actually said.

I have no idea if she is guilty or innocent, and I frankly do not care. It is apparent she cannot receive a fair trial in Mexico, and it is apparent the Mexican authorities are doing nothing to rectify that situation. You only have to read Joanne's update to see that.

And what I expect our government to do is apply more pressure of a diplomatic nature, because unlike most of you, I am not prepared to take their word they have done all they can do- most of which was done only after the media starting questioning what is going on here.

Anonymous said...

It is interesting that when Dan McTeague and Paul Martin visit Mexico ( with no results) it is called humanitarian but when Tory MP's visit it is dismissed as a "photo-op" and a "dog and pony show" by some partisan members of the MSM. In the MSM story below you decide whose visit is a photo-op.
LONDON, Ont. -- The plight of a suicidal Canadian woman held in a Mexican jail for two years without trial is troubling but Ottawa can't simply demand she be freed as some of her supporters want, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Wednesday.

Brenda Martin, 51, faces charges of money laundering, something she vehemently denies, and has threatened to kill herself if not freed soon.



A recent undated photo of Liberal consular affairs critic Dan McTeague (left) with Brenda Martin inside the Puente Grande Women's Prison in Guadalajara. (Handout Photo )

Harper, who has dispatched two MPs to meet the woman in prison, said Canadian officials have had about 100 contacts either with their Mexican counterparts or Martin herself in the past two years.

"We're all troubled by the fact that a Canadian has been in a Mexican prison now for two years without trial," Harper said following an event at an elementary school in London, Ont.

"The process is unacceptably slow and I think it troubles all of us."

Harper said the government at all levels, up to and including cabinet, has worked diligently on the file since Martin's arrest in early 2006. Still, Harper cautioned he wasn't making excuses when he said he can't simply pick up the telephone and demand Mexico's president release her.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/canada_pic/story/4145892p-4736056c.html

Gayle said...

Besides Brenda Martin, who has called the CPC efforts to assist her a "dog and pony" show?

Of do some of you believe merely quoting someone who is criticizing Harper is an example of media bias?

Alberta Girl said...

"And what I expect our government to do is apply more pressure of a diplomatic nature, because unlike most of you, I am not prepared to take their word they have done all they can do- most of which was done only after the media starting questioning what is going on here."

Bu**Sh** Gayle - The government has BEEN WORKING ON HER CASE FOR TWO YEARS - what about that do you not understand.

I think you are an intelligent woman, however you seem to be a little thick in regards to the FACTS in this case choosing instead to believe what you read in the newspapers.

Try to get yourself up to speed with ALL the facts Gayle, that way you might see how you have been duped by the politics of this story.

Gayle said...

AG - the government SAYS it has been working on the case for two years, but nothing really happened to push this along until the last couple of weeks, and suddenly we see a flurry of activity.

A couple of phone calls is not what I call "working" on this.

This case has been in the news in Edmonton for at least a year. I know that some consular officials met with her, and that eventually she sent them packing. Those individuals acknowledge that her incarceration has put a huge strain on her mental health and that she was no longer thinking rationally a year ago.

Frankly everyone dropped the ball on this one.

Alberta Girl said...

"AG - the government SAYS it has been working on the case for two years, but nothing really happened to push this along until the last couple of weeks, and suddenly we see a flurry of activity."

Gee Gayle, I didn't know that you were at the highest echelons of the Conservative Party that you KNOW exactly who was working on what and how long they have been working on it.

Just because it hit the newspapers over the past two weeks DOES NOT mean that work was not being done.

"I know that some consular officials met with her, and that eventually she sent them packing."

And that Gayle, seems to be the Story of Brenda Martin - she seems to be her own worst enemy then wants to blame her choices on the fact the government did not ride in and kidnap her in the dead of night.

As one other commenter asked

Just what are you expecting the government to do that would free her.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Well said, Alberta Girl, on all points.

Gayle said...

I guess you missed that whole "mental health" thing AG. She is not making good choices - that much is clear and has been acknowledged by me more than once.

The government did not send a diplomatic note until last week, when this hit the news. It is unclear what they have done before that, aside from phone calls. It seems they are prepared to allow the public to think they are doing more than they actually are if they way they allowed people to believe Harper's phone call with the Mexican president was about Brenda Martin is any indication.

The real issue to me is that all our government is pushing for here is a trial, when what Brenda Martin wants is to come home. She alleges she has been caught up in a wave of corruption, and our government does not appear to be taking those allegations seriously.

I suppose if they sent the foreign affairs minister rather than Jason Kenny I might be more convinced they are doing all they can...

Gayle said...

Anyway, does anyone have an answer to this?:

"Besides Brenda Martin, who has called the CPC efforts to assist her a "dog and pony" show?"

Alberta Girl said...

"The government did not send a diplomatic note until last week, when this hit the news"

How do you know? Because the newspapers said so?

"I suppose if they sent the foreign affairs minister rather than Jason Kenny I might be more convinced they are doing all they can..."

Why?

It is always something that the Tories are doing wrong with you isn't it. Do you seriously think the foreign minister would get anything more than Jason Kenny??

"The real issue to me is that all our government is pushing for here is a trial, when what Brenda Martin wants is to come home. "

Um - no Gayle - she emphatically stated she did not want to come home if she had to go to jail. But you are probably chalking that up to her "mental condition". That seems to be a very easy "out" - I didn't really mean it, I was just mentally ill.

Sorry Gayle - that doesn't wash with me - she has stymied every effort to help her by making choices (yeah, yeah -the mental thing) that did not work in her best interest. Perhaps her friend Deb could have intervened and said, "Brenda, let me make some decisions for you, you are not thinking clearly, this is what you should do"

But all her friends and family have done is come down on the government all the while lauding the Liberals in this situation. Something doesn't smell right here Gayle, this seems like too much of a "manufactured drama" to me.

And to answer your question - no one but Brenda has called it a dog and pony show other than the press who ate it up and were more than happy to repeat it loudly and clearly!!!

Gayle said...

AG - it is really sad how quickly you will resort to the "media bias" thing. If the media quote Harper saying something derogatory about the liberals, does that mean the media are biased against the liberals? So long as the media are clear they are quoting Martin, it does not mean the media are agreeing with her. Do try to get off that train and start looking at things objectively rather than blaming the media every time Harper looks bad.

As for Martin's mental state, that information was first delivered by the consulate officials who went to see her. They made it clear they believed she sent them away because her mental health was suffering due to her incarceration.

She certainly did say she did not want to come here if it meant she was going to jail. That is because she says she is innocent, and all the government is doing is on the assumption she is guilty and will be sentenced to more jail. That is my point.

Finally, sending a minor minister like Jason Kenny sends a message to the Mexican government that our government is not concerned enough to make this into a higher diplomatic effort. You will not be able to see that though since you have no ability at all to see this government as anything but manna from Heaven.

I do not expect to convince you. Indeed, that was not my intention when I first posted, since my point was directed to her rights as a Canadian citizen, not to her rights as someone who dares criticize Harper.

Alberta Girl said...

"You will not be able to see that though since you have no ability at all to see this government as anything but manna from Heaven."

Well they sure are better than the alternative!!


"since my point was directed to her rights as a Canadian citizen, not to her rights as someone who dares criticize Harper."

And my point is that her rights as a Canadian citizen are being looked after in the same manner as Bill Graham looked after William Sampson and Arahr. There is obviously protocol and diplomatic channels to follow. These have been followed and the fact that they have not been reporting every little step along the way to the media does not mean they have not been working.

It seems that nothing less than packing her up and bringing her home first class will be a winning situation in your mind.

So what if the Mexicans say that they will not let her go - what will you say then - that the government just did not try hard enough??? What exactly is enough for you - I don't know that you answered that question. What would be the outcome that would have you saying that the government did all they could?

Anonymous said...

So Gayle.
what exactly are Ms. Martins rights?
I mean exactly, not what you think they should be.
Further, The Foreign Minister did meet with his Mexican counterpart.
Further, The Canadian Embassy was in touch with Ms. Martin at the start.
She rejected their recommendations, remember.
The Canadian Embassy is part of the Government is it not?
So to say there was no contact is not quite factual is it?
One more further.
The media NEVER, not once, came forward with information as to the initial contact from the Embassy, her refusal to follow their recommendations, the delay of the trial due to the stupidity of the constitutional challenge.
Lets say that the media are not biased. We would then have to say that they are incompetent, i mean really incompetent for so called professionals.
To say that nothing was done until pressure was applied is not true is it?
The truth is that we do know a few things that were done. We do not know everything that was done. I am sure that the Prime Minister does not call for a press conference whenever he talks to a foreign leader.
-Lee-

SouthernOntarioan said...

Canadians traveling abroad should be aware that the countries that they are traveling to have legal systems that are not necessarily up to par with Canada's.

Its unfortunate when these things happen and Canada should work for their release or at the least a fair trial in the nation they are accused. But Canada cannot swoop in like a knight in shining armour to save the damsel in distress. We cannot perpetrate a miscarriage of justice by demanding that Mexico bend the rules for our citizens.

Alberta Girl said...

Interesting story over at CTV.ca about the Mexican government holding Brenda Martin (and another woman) until Waage pays them what he owes them.

"Both Martin and Roth have written to him saying they'll be released once he pays the money, he said."

Maybe we should just do a silver collection, and pay the ransom, maybe that is what Gayle means by "the government is not doing enough".

Brenda Martin KNOWS why she is in the prediciment she is in and yet she blames the Harper govenment.

Political pawn - damned right she is but it wasn't the Tories that threw the first volley. The Liberals saw a perfect sympathy vote and decided to just wail away with no regard to the actual facts.

So Gayle - with this new information, how do you propose Stephen Harper raise the millions needed to pay the Mexican's ransom?

Gayle said...

What is it about plain English that so many of you seem to have a problem with?

Letbme say this again - Brenda Martin says she is innocent. The government has already said they are basing their limited assistance on the assumption she will have a trial, be convicted and sentenced to jail, at which point she can apply to come to Canada. When that is the basis for their diplomatic intervention then it is not enough, particularly in light of what Waage is saying. It appears she cannot get a fair trial. It also appears she is in no mental state to properly instruct her counsel. All our government is prepared to do is bring her home after she is convicted and sentenced.

So, again, what I expect them to do is apply diplomatic pressure, from the highest levels, to ask the Mexican government to free this woman and send her home. There are ways this can be done. Some of you keep bring up Arar and Sampson (ironic really, given the way the CPC villified the liberals for not doing enough for either man, but I digress...). IN both cases the men were freed - one without trial and the other after he was convicted and pardoned. Neither had to wait to ask our government to allow them to finish serving their sentence in this country.

Lee, as for this:

"Further, The Canadian Embassy was in touch with Ms. Martin at the start.
She rejected their recommendations, remember.
The Canadian Embassy is part of the Government is it not?
So to say there was no contact is not quite factual is it?
One more further.
The media NEVER, not once, came forward with information as to the initial contact from the Embassy, her refusal to follow their recommendations, the delay of the trial due to the stupidity of the constitutional challenge."

1. I have already stated in previous posts consular officials had contact with her, as reported in the Edmonton Journal a year ago, so your comment the media never said anything is a complete fabrication, much like to comments of others here who claim the media called the conservative efforts a "dog and pony show".

2. The consulate is a government institution, but saying they were doing their jobs is not the same as saying the conservative government of Canada was taking steps to help her.

3. I am at a loss to understand why people think her constitutional challenge was "stupid". She is entitled to exercise her legal rights, is she not? Just because she lost her case in a legal system most people acknowledge is corrupt does not mean her challenge was stupid.

Hey, in the post above Joanne links to media sources that quote liberals saying bad things about Dion. Stupid conservative biased media...

Do you get how stupid that is???

Alberta Girl said...

"All our government is prepared to do is bring her home after she is convicted and sentenced."

So you are basing your view of the "facts" from her say so - being that you apparently work with criminals, you, of all people, should know that most jailed people maintain their innocence.

How do you know that this is ALL that is taking place, like I said, the government does not go to the press with every little detail of their negotiations - a fact that seems to p-o the press (and apparently you) off.

"The consulate is a government institution, but saying they were doing their jobs is not the same as saying the conservative government of Canada was taking steps to help her."

Geesh Gayle - you twist things around in order to give credence to your liberal view of the world. Give me a friken break, the beauracrats WORK for the government, if they do something, it is the government doing something. But I guess that absolves the liberals from guilt in the adscam afair if that is your opinion. Beauracrats take orders from the government in power. To say that the consulate was working on it but the Tories were doing nothing is ludicrous.

So to quote you - "What is it about plain English that you seem to have a problem with?"

Anonymous said...

I stand corrected about the article in the Edmonton Journal a year ago.
Of course we will likely never know that if Ms. Martin had taken the advice of the Canadian Consulate, she might have been free a long time ago.
I am making an assumtion of course but wouldnt it be fair to believe that those who work at the consulate would be well versed in the machinations of the Mexican judicial system?
If someone asks for my help and i offer it, then my offer of assistance is rejected, i am unlikely to pursue the issue with any degree of enthusiasm.
-Lee-

Gayle said...

"you, of all people, should know that most jailed people maintain their innocence."

Actually, that is not true. Virtually every person I know who has been charged admits guilt. Some who are guilty do not, and everyone who is not guilty maintains their innocence.

I will give you this - in my opinion people who are fraud artists are master manipulators It is very hard to determine when they are being truthful and when they are not. In Martin's case I have to consider her mental state and the fact the allegations against her seem to stem from one ten thousand dollar investment. That said, I have been consistent in my opinion that I do not know if she is guilty or not, but that it does not matter to me either way.

My opinion on what the government is doing is based on what the government is saying. They talk about the Mexican legal system taking its course, and that they are concerned with the delay of the trial. No one has come out and contradicted Martin's statement either, which is telling.

Gayle said...

"If someone asks for my help and i offer it, then my offer of assistance is rejected, i am unlikely to pursue the issue with any degree of enthusiasm."

Which makes sense if your assistance was an option. It does not make sense when your assistance is your job.

Anonymous said...

Right again Gayle.
Dam, i hate it when that happens.
Its almost too easy isnt it?
-Lee-

Joanne (True Blue) said...

'Rositta' just posted a comment on an earlier edition of this story:

I think just about everything has been said about this case and I agree with it all, except I think none of us would really like to be in a Mexican jail and Canada's track record for helping it's citizens abroad is not exactly stellar. Yes Brenda was probably the author of her own downfall and she is prone to hysterics but the government should and will try to help her. I noticed last week that even Mike Duffy of CTV was getting a little peeved with her and loosing some sympathy...ciao

Pretty fair assessment, I thought.

Alberta Girl said...

"Yes Brenda was probably the author of her own downfall and she is prone to hysterics but the government should and will try to help her."

Great Assessment....the key word here is "will". Given the roadblocks Brenda herself has thrown in her way, it becomes a much more difficult job for the government to negotiate her release. Mentally incapaciated or not, sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

Hopefully Gayle will see that.

Alberta Girl said...

Gayle - Note that the Government is on this one - as they should be - and as they most likely were in Brenda's case. I would however point out that the left seems to be championing Brenda's case a lot harder than they are championing this one. I guess a jailed woman trumps a man sentenced to beheading.

"OTTAWA -- Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day, who is travelling in the Middle East, will raise with Saudi Arabian authorities the case of Mohamed Kohail, a Canadian man sentenced to death by beheading.

"While in Saudi Arabia Wednesday, he [Day] plans on raising Mr. Kohail's consular case," the minister's spokeswoman, Melisa Leclerc, said Tuesday. "As you know, our government is deeply disappointed at the verdict handed down by Saudi authorities on March 3."

Mr. Kohail, a 23-year-old Montrealer, was convicted of murder in Saudi Arabia following a schoolyard brawl that left one person dead. His supporters insist Mr. Kohail didn't get a fair trial."

Gayle said...

AG - the "left" (?) do not have to call for the government to do something they are already doing.

Alberta Girl said...

"AG - the "left" (?) do not have to call for the government to do something they are already doing."

What ever are you talking about.??

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Gayle's spin cycle has gone into overdrive.

Gayle said...

I am talking about this rather disgusting comment.

"I would however point out that the left seems to be championing Brenda's case a lot harder than they are championing this one. I guess a jailed woman trumps a man sentenced to beheading."

Alberta Girl said...

"I am talking about this rather disgusting comment."

Well Well - it appears the truth struck a little nerve there.

Gayle said...

AG - I always know I have had the best of someone in an argument when they have to resort to baseless accusations about my character rather than address the issue at hand.

Next time I hope you can do better, but I will not hold my breath.

Alberta Girl said...

"AG - I always know I have had the best of someone in an argument when they have to resort to baseless accusations about my character rather than address the issue at hand."

Well Gayle I have to hand it to you - you are the master at twisting something someone says into "character" assasination?

Way to turn things around -like Joanne says - your spin cycle has gone into overdrive.

Anonymous said...

Brenda's lies re support from our civil servants in Mexico have been exposed. Did she think they would allow her to smear their reputations?
Mr. Waage returned the money Brenda had invested in his company. I have not heard of any other investors getting their money back? Why Brenda? Was she special or in on the scam?
AB

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Very thought-provoking question, AB.