Thursday, March 06, 2008

One step closer to protecting ALL women and children

Bill C - 484 passed Second First Who Knows Which Reading yesterday - 147 to 133. (Big H/T to BCLSB)

As Raphael points out, many Feminists and abortion activists apparently feel betrayed by the fact that more than 20 Liberals supported Ken Epp's bill, and that Stephane Dion abstained (surprise!). Red Tory calls the ones that didn't vote "spineless weasels". On that much, I suppose, we can agree.

I am deeply disappointed with the actions of the four Conservative MPs who voted against this bill, including cabinet ministers Lawrence Cannon, Gordon O'Connor and Josée Verner. I can only ask why?

On the other hand, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all MPs who voted in favour. Does anyone have a list? I think we need to acknowledge their courage in doing the right thing, and putting partisan politics aside.

These folks have demonstrated great integrity, which has been sadly lacking in Canadian politics lately.


Some feminists argue that this bill won't deter violence against pregnant women, but as Arthur Weinreb of CFP rightly points out in his article Crime and punishment: fetuses and the pig farmer,

...If the argument that it won’t stop violence against women is going to be used we might as well save the justice system some bucks and legalize wife beating...

Exactly.


There are two different scenarios that would apply to this bill. One is where the mother is attacked, for example with a sword plunged 15 times into her abdomen in a successful attempt to kill the fetus, but by some miracle she still survives.

In this case, a charge of murder of the unborn child could be laid, rather than simply the "attempted murder" of the mother. (And as Suzanne points out, the family needs to see justice.)



The second scenario would be if both are killed. (Please look at the photo of Olivia and Lane Talbot in that link and then tell me that the unborn child does not exist until the moment of birth.)

Weinreb refutes the argument that Feminists use when they say that "under the Criminal Code, any sentence imposed in addition to life must run concurrently and therefore imposing a sentence for injury or death to the fetus will not lengthen the sentence handed out to a killer."

He points out the logical inconsistency of that argument with the case of the infamous Robert Pickton trial:

...When it came to the Pickton matter, these same feminists argued the opposite of what they argued in regards to Bill C-484. It is seriously doubtful that any penalty that Pickton receives will do anything to deter future serial killers of women from carrying out their destruction. But you never hear anyone argue that the Crown should not go ahead with the other 20 counts because that prosecution won’t “stop” violence against women.

Assuming that Pickton’s sentence of life with no chance of parole for 25 years is upheld, any further sentences that are imposed have to be concurrent so in the end, as far as Pickton’s punishment or liberty is concerned, there will be no difference. But this truth, seen as a major argument against Bill C-484, is deemed to be irrelevant when it comes to Pickton...

You can't have it both ways, ladies.


This bill not only attempts to give the unborn child more protection, it also affirms the choice of a woman to carry her pregnancy to term.

To only protect women who choose to have an abortion is discriminatory.

Plain and simple.


More at Wudrick Blog - Bill C-484:Cue the insane hyperbole.

Climbing out of the Dark - Sister? You are not my sister!

And from the other side - Bill to protect the unborn is the wrong approach... according to Antonia.

* * * *

Update: Thanks again to the amazing Gabby, we now have the list. Be sure to find your MP's name on the list and contact him or her. Thanks.

From Hansard at the 1850 mark:

YEAS

Members
Abbott
Ablonczy
Albrecht
Allen
Allison
Ambrose
Anders
Anderson
Arthur
Baird
Batters
Benoit
Bezan
Blackburn
Blaney
Bonin
Breitkreuz
Brown (Leeds—Grenville)
Brown (Barrie)
Bruinooge
Calkins
Cannan (Kelowna—Lake Country)
Cannis
Carrie
Casson
Chan
Chong
Clement
Comuzzi
Cullen (Etobicoke North)
Cummins
Davidson
Day
Del Mastro
Devolin
Dhaliwal
Doyle
Dykstra
Emerson
Epp
Fast
Finley
Fitzpatrick
Fletcher
Galipeau
Gallant
Goldring
Goodyear
Gourde
Grewal
Guarnieri
Guergis
Hanger
Harper
Harris
Harvey
Hawn
Hearn
Hiebert
Hill
Hinton
Hubbard
Jaffer
Jean
Kamp (Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission)
Karygiannis
Keddy (South Shore—St. Margaret's)
Kenney (Calgary Southeast)
Khan
Komarnicki
Kramp (Prince Edward—Hastings)
Lake
Lauzon
Lebel
Lee
Lemieux
Lukiwski
Lunn
Lunney
MacAulay
MacKay (Central Nova)
MacKenzie
Malhi
Maloney
Manning
Mark
Mayes
McGuire
McKay (Scarborough—Guildwood)
McTeague
Menzies
Merrifield
Miller
Mills
Moore (Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam)
Moore (Fundy Royal)
Murphy (Charlottetown)
Nicholson
Norlock
Obhrai
Oda
Pacetti
Paradis
Petit
Poilievre
Prentice
Preston
Rajotte
Reid
Richardson
Ritz
Scarpaleggia
Scheer
Schellenberger
Shipley
Simard
Skelton
Solberg
Sorenson
St. Amand
Stanton
Steckle
Stoffer
Storseth
Strahl
Sweet
Szabo
Thibault (West Nova)
Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest)
Thompson (Wild Rose)
Tilson
Toews
Tonks
Trost
Tweed
Valley
Van Kesteren
Van Loan
Vellacott
Wallace
Wappel
Warawa
Warkentin
Watson
Williams
Wrzesnewskyj
Yelich

Total: -- 147

NAYS

Members
Alghabra
André
Asselin
Atamanenko
Bachand
Bagnell
Bains
Barbot
Barnes
Beaumier
Bélanger
Bell (Vancouver Island North)
Bell (North Vancouver)
Bellavance
Bennett
Bevilacqua
Bevington
Bigras
Black
Blais
Bonsant
Boshcoff
Bouchard
Boucher
Bourgeois
Brison
Brown (Oakville)
Brunelle
Cannon (Pontiac)
Cardin
Carrier
Charlton
Chow
Christopherson
Comartin
Cotler
Crête
Cullen (Skeena—Bulkley Valley)
Cuzner
D'Amours
Davies
DeBellefeuille
Demers
Deschamps
Dewar
Dhalla
Dryden
Duceppe
Easter
Faille
Folco
Freeman
Fry
Gagnon
Godfrey
Godin
Goodale
Gravel
Guay
Guimond
Holland
Ignatieff
Jennings
Kadis
Keeper
Kotto
Laforest
Laframboise
Lavallée
Layton
LeBlanc
Lemay
Lessard
Lévesque
Lussier
Malo
Marleau
Marston
Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca)
Martin (Winnipeg Centre)
Martin (Sault Ste. Marie)
Masse
Mathyssen
Matthews
McCallum
McDonough
McGuinty
Ménard (Hochelaga)
Ménard (Marc-Aurèle-Fortin)
Minna
Mourani
Mulcair
Murphy (Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe)
Nadeau
Nash
Neville
O'Connor
Ouellet
Paquette
Patry
Pearson
Perron
Picard
Plamondon
Priddy
Proulx
Ratansi
Redman
Regan
Rodriguez
Rota
Roy
Russell
Savage
Savoie
Scott
Sgro
Siksay
Silva
Simms
St-Cyr
St-Hilaire
St. Denis
Telegdi
Temelkovski
Thi Lac
Thibault (Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques)
Turner
Verner
Vincent
Wasylycia-Leis
Wilson

Total: -- 132

* * * *


Absent (Courtesy of Red Tory): Stéphane Dion; Bryon Wilfert; Joe Volpe; Scott Simms; Nancy Karetak-Lindell; Hon. Mark Eyking; Ujjal Dosanjh; Denis Coderre; Brenda Chamberlain; Gerry Byrne.

Total: - - 10 Spineless weasels.





31 comments:

Anonymous said...

There aren't many laws that 'deter' murderous behaviour.
Murders don't usually stop to consider a law before they kill. My understanding of this law is the rest of us can have some satisfaction in knowing that the murder of a pre born baby will not go unpunished.
Pro-abortionists are probably uncomfortable with that thought but they try to spin it into something else.

bluetech

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Bluetech, I would agree with you to a point, that some murders are 'crimes of passion' in that the murderer usually has some kind of acute mental meltdown, without regard for the consequences.

However, this bill may affect some pre-meditated actions.

Pregnant women are extremely vulnerable and deserve our support.

And yes, it would afford some kind of closure to relatives, such as Lane Talbot's grandmother.

Roy Eappen said...

That is very disappointing about the 4 Tory cabinet ministers.
We will have to email them and ask why.

Gabby in QC said...

Joanne, while I may not agree with those 4 Tories who voted against the bill, I think it is proof that the Conservative party is not a monolith, and that in certain matters, they are free to vote according to their conscience or their constituents' wishes.

I believe NDP Stoffer voted FOR, which surprised me, since the NDP usually votes 'en bloc.'

Full list here at item 1850:
http://tinyurl.com/2dz8mo

Joanne (True Blue) said...

We will have to email them and ask why.

Dr. roy, I think we should email everyone who voted against it and ask why.

Joanne, while I may not agree with those 4 Tories who voted against the bill, I think it is proof that the Conservative party is not a monolith

Good point. And thanks for that list! As usual, you are a fount of information. ;)

Anonymous said...

I recently read a discussion about the unborn in our society and found it to be quite good with some interesting comments if any one would like to read http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/03/04/can-christians-support-abortion-a-theology-of-abortion/ I would like to add My dad was brutally murdered about 15 years ago the guy was sent off for a psychiatric examination .He was acquitted as they found that he was temporarily insane when he committed the crime ..wasn't taking his med's ...10 years later He lost it again killing another person .I didn't know this person but knew his brother quite well ..apparently not on his meds again .Gregory Depres who used a power saw to kill and murder two senior citizens in their home is waiting a judges decision to determine if he was criminal responsible because at the time he may have been crazy ...Which ever way the judge decides will do nothing to alter the suffering the family has had to bear up to this point but should he get off because he was crazy at the time I can tell you the family will have to live with this the rest of their lives ..There is a lot to be said for closure in these matters .that much I do know ...katou

Steph said...

Gabby's link doesn't work anymore. It goes to a page that says "The Parliament of Canada Web site is dynamic and changes to the way the material is organized are sometimes unavoidable".

It there a place where I can find information on the way that MPs have voted on all recent bills?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Steph,that's strange because it works for me. However, I'm going to update this post with the list because it's hard to find on that page, which takes a while to totally download. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/78837/ On a lighter note there is a viedo clip about making laws in Texas this clip is very cute at the end ..katou

Gabby in QC said...

The tiny url link should work. When the page shows up, just click on "PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS" and you'll see the item "Unborn Victims of Crime Act 18:40"
Click on that and you'll see the beginning of the list.

Hope that helps.
P.S.: If the download is slow, it's because you're not on a Mac ;-)

Gabby in QC said...

"The amazing Gabby"?

I've been called other things ...
but thanks.
I blush, and I must rush to other things now.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Thanks, Gabby. So exactly which of those names on the Yay side are Liberals? Off the top of my head I recognize the following:

- Joe Comuzzi
- John McKay
- Paul Szabo (!)
- Robert Thibeault (!!)
- Tom Wappel (no surprise there)
- Borys Wrzesnewskyj


Can anyone add to the list? Thanks.

Anonymous said...

katou...that is so sad. My sympathy to you and your family. The problem in Canada is not the laws, it is the justice system.Cops will do what they can to get convictions, only to have lawyer and judges play their games...at the expense of the victims.
So it is better to have this 'law' and hopefully see some punishment for murdering pre-born babies.
Thanks for the work on that list...my Lib MP voted nay...
I'll make sure that that info gets out to his constituents.

bluetech

Joanne (True Blue) said...

There is a lot to be said for closure in these matters .that much I do know

Katou, I join Bluetech in extending my sympathy about what happened to your father. I can't imagine the nightmare you were living through. I'm sure it still haunts you. Thank you for your story.

bigcitylib said...

http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com/2008/03/not-so-fast.html#links

Its actually first reading. G&M corrected their own story.

Spitfire said...

"You can't have it both ways, ladies`"

I said the exact same discussion here a few days ago when discussing university student associations taking a stand against the funding or creation of student groups who are against abortion.

Raphael Alexander said...

Joanne, that picture of Olivia and Lane Talbot made me cry. It's obvious this law is protecting women, not hurting them.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Big City Lib - Thanks for pointing that out. Duly noted and corrected.

Raphael - I know. It's gut-wrenching. Every MP on the Nay side needs to look at that picture before the next (Second) reading.

Red Tory said...

You're going to have to make another correction. I never called them "20 Liberal assholes" — that was BCL's embellishment. In fact, I just listed them, but never called them anything, although I did suggest their vote was shameful and referred to those who were absent as "spineless weasels."

bigcitylib said...

Okay. Mea Culpa. One of my commenters suggests that the Globe got it right first time.

The 1st vote is on the 2nd Reading. Ther are still two more votes to go.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

The 1st vote is on the 2nd Reading. Ther are still two more votes to go.

Yikes! This is confusing!!

Steph said...

Yes, it's a bit confusing but if you read what's at the end of the list on Hansard it says, "The Deputy Speaker: I declare the motion carried. Accordingly, the bill stands referred to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. (Bill read the second time and referred to a committee)"

So I think the vote was on whether to read the bill the second time and pass it onto a committee (which I guess is the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights).

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Thanks, Steph!

Joanne (True Blue) said...

although I did suggest their vote was shameful and referred to those who were absent as "spineless weasels."

Changes made, except I couldn't use strikeout or it would have been too confusing.

Thanks for the list BTW.
Liberals with a conscience are:

Raymond Bonin; Gord Brown; John Cannis; Hon. Raymond Chan; Hon. Roy Cullen; Sukh Dhaliwal; Hon. Albina Guarnieri; Hon. Charles Hubbard; Hon. Jim Karygiannis Derek Lee; Hon. Lawrence MacAulay; Hon. Gurbax Malhi; Hon. John McKay; Hon. Joe McGuire; Hon. Dan McTeague; Hon. Shawn Murphy; Massimo Pacetti; Francis Scarpaleggia; Hon. Raymond Simard; Lloyd St. Amand; Paul Steckle; Paul Szabo; Hon. Robert Thibault; Alan Tonks; Roger Valley; Tom Wappel; Borys Wrzesnewskyj.


Sukh Dhaliwal? I may have to change my opinion of him.

Gabby in QC said...

Steph asked "It there a place where I can find information on the way that MPs have voted on all recent bills?

If you go here:
http://parl.howdtheyvote.ca/39-2
you can find out how each individual member voted. You can also get a list of the bills.
However, it might not have a record of the very latest votes.
BTW, we're at the 39th Parliament, second session.

Also, if you want to see the MPs vote, the votes are usually done around 6:00 pm as far as I can tell. They are shown on CPAC. I don't know the schedule for vote taking days, however.

Steph said...

Thanks Gabby. I don't know what it is with me and the parliament websites but they are just not working well for me today. I can at least access this one but none of the links on the right work. Nothing happens when I click on the links to change the session. And when I click on the "Bills" or "Members" links on the left those work but then I can't click on the individual bills or members on the right. *sigh*

Joanne (True Blue) said...

The Bloc said in QP that they're going to do everything they can to defeat this bill.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

This comment by Anon at 12:11 PM at BCLSB is worth posting here:

"The confusion here seems to be about what exactly a vote on "second reading" is. Here's a quick civics lesson to clear things up.

A bill is read in Parliament for the first time when it is introduced. There is no vote at first reading. The initial vote any bill faces is on having it read a second time (hence the vote being referred to as a vote on "second reading"). If the bill passes the vote on second reading it's sent to committee, which then reports on the bill. A "report stage" debate and vote follows. If the bill passes that vote, a motion is made to read the bill a third time. If the bill passes the vote at third reading, it is sent to the Senate.

In short, a vote on second reading is actually the first vote a bill faces. C-484 still has a committee to pass through in addition to two more votes in the House before it even makes its way to the Senate, where it would have to start the process all over again.

Also, keep in mind that the Justice committee can amend the bill during its deliberations. This gives MPs the opportunity to change the more controversial, seemingly anti-choice passages contained in C-484."

Oxford said...

Protecting the life of a fetus, a women has CHOSEN to keep,

violates a women's right to choose????

Shows you what the real death cult agenda is all about.

The right to kill fetuses regardless of a woman's choice.

Gabby in QC said...

Steph,
Sorry I didn't get back to your comment sooner.

When I checked the link I provided, the one that wasn't working for you (How'd They Vote?) I had problems too.
When I changed my browser from Safari to Firefox and I used this link
http://parl.howdtheyvote.ca/39-2/bills
it worked. I did get some information on bills, although limited and not necessarily up to date.

If I come across any other info, I'll post it for you.

Steph said...

Thanks Gabby. Unfortunately, that link doesn't work for me either but I do know people who use Firefox so I will get them to try it and to look things up for me if there is anything specific I want to know.