Friday, January 19, 2007

Little Mosque Across the Atlantic

Michael Coren's column (From the mouth of mullahs) in today's National Post highlights a disturbing U.K. documentary, Undercover Mosque. He is not the only one sounding the alarm.

The "10-month undercover investigation into home-grown extremism has revealed hard-line Islamic fundamentalism being preached in British mosques" (Mirror).

Coren points out that the mosques that were chosen for investigation were considered to be 'moderate'.

The findings are frightening:


Some speakers call for girls to be hit if they don't wear Islamic dress and say that they can marry before puberty, others praise the Taliban.

Speaking at the Ahl-e-Hadith mosque, in Derby, Dr Mian tells his listeners: "You are in a situation in which you have to live like a state-within-a-state - until you take over.

"But until this happens, you have to preach, until you become such a force that the people just submit to you."

The implicit warning is that giving into Muslim extremism is not the answer. Rather, it is the enabler.


* * * *

Update: Dr. Roy has an interesting perspective on this - Double Standards.

49 comments:

Red Tory said...

Wait, isn’t Channel 4 a bastion of free-thinking “liberalism” in the UK MSM? Surely, there must be something wrong here. Isn’t the liberal MSM evil and rotten to the core? So how can what they have to say be of any relevance? Have THEY had a bout of sanity too like your “activist judges” in the previous post? And this article was published in the National Post, another organ of the MSM filled with hacks and useful idiots. What gives?

Red Tory said...

Oh, and another thing. You link to the Daily Mirror. Why, isn’t that an unashamedly “liberal” tabloid? Yes I think it is. My, how wonderfully selective we are when the sources provide us with thigh-rubbing self-gratification. What, no cries of MSM bias and liberal media spin?

Red Tory said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Joanne (True Blue) said...

Have you been saving all this up, Red?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Why don't you do a counter-post on your blog, for old-time's sake.

It would be very therapeutic. Like a purge. Too much poison stuck inside.

Anonymous said...

Yeah Red, lance your literary boil.

Red Tory said...

Drawing a blank are you, JJ? As my good friend KEv would say, "You've got nothin."

I’m not going to post a counter argument (they tend to go off in rather odd directions and rather alarmingly fill up my e-mail box) so why don’t you just address the questions that I’ve posed here quite directly. These are fair queries and come back to the issues of intellectual honesty and integrity that I raised several days ago. I believe the onus is on you at this point to defend your positions in a forthright manner rather than being evasive. If you express and opinion you should be prepared to back it up and defend it.

Annie said...

Joanne:

I'd have preferred to say this in a private email, but I cannot open the link to your email.

As you know I have been a reader of yours for a very long time. I enjoy your point of view even on those occasions where I do not agree. You are intelligent, articulate and thoughtful, something rarely found online.

However, I find that I can no long visit your site. The ongoing bickering that goes on in your comments is too tedious to get through anymore. Some people come for discussion and debate, some people, it seems, come just to stir the pot regardless of topic. I enjoy reading others comments but the bickering and petty back and forth that has been getting worse over the last number of months now makes your blog hard to read and a lot less enjoyable. I wonder how many others have wandered away because of the school room antics of one or two who visit your site.

I am sorry to say that since you allow your blog to cater to the spoilsport behaviour and the personal vendetta’s of a few, I must move on and find other titillating reading.

I wish you well, God bless.

Annie

billg said...

Jeez there's a shock...RT commenting on everything BUT the subject of the Blog's post...

Anonymous said...

As much as I don't always like Joanne's lack of a proper two-way discussion, i kind of like the topic she brought up today.

It is sad to see a few, assuming that these stories are true, muslims try to carry out their political agenda's based on faith.

But are we any smarter to think that this is truly a reflection of faith?

What about the situation in Northern Ireland - the constant fighting and terrorism between the catholic and the protestant groups there -- would it be fair to label the entire faith of Christianity as being based on terror?

Its also unfortunate that only the "negative news" more often than not makes it to the media.

Here in Canada, I know of a Muslim group that has founded and initiated the Global Centre for (pluralism http://www.pluralism.ca/) to promote peace and learning between people's of all races, faiths and cultures.

Anonymous said...

The Islamic Republic of Britain

Anonymous said...

Joanne
i watched the video's
thank you for bringing this to our attention
i love your blog you always are up to date and on topic
i hope others that criticize you put aside their differences and take time to learn about the brain washing that is going on of the young muslims
the message they are being given is one of hatred for Jews, Christians and westeners
they are being told that they must overcome all Jews, Christians and the west
very frightening
Florence fron garth turners blog

Anonymous said...

What I find ironic, it that many Blithering Idiots are all posting the same tired arguments/point of view...

Anonymous said...

I don't see a problem with quoting from a Liberal television channel, nor a liberal paper... most likely they were not nearly as pointed in their revelations as they could have been, naturally seeking to mitigate the impact of whatever they were reporting. Thats what Liberal rags do when they have to say something they don't want to be true.

Be grateful it wasn't a Conservative channel or paper... they'd probably have capped the story off with a call for a crusade against the infidel Muslims.

Oh by the way Red:

"So there you go. I guess the legion of Anonymous trolls and diehard CPC cheerleaders have scored a victory. Woo-hoo! Chalk one up for your side. Yippy! I just can’t take it any more and am utterly fed up. In the last few weeks, I’ve been called… insulting, petty, mean, insensitive, heartless, spiteful, remorseless, obfuscating, pompous, censorious, ignorant, stupid, blind, delusional, a socialist, a communist… Not to mention a pinko, wine-sipping, French loving, cut and runner, a terrorist sympathizing, traitorous, gutless, “never worked a day in my life” condescending elitist. Conservatives of course don’t engage in name-calling. Yeah… right."

I'd like think I've never stooped to that level Red... I can certainly think of a few times where you have though.

Anyway, if you can't stand the heat, I guess it's best to get out of the kitchen. Although I understand, as I've had some pretty nasty swipes taken at me a time or two... I think a few were by you.

I found you arrogant, overbearing at times, definately high on yourself in some of your responses to me... and well, just plain mean in your attitude as often as not.

I also found your perspective interesting, thought-provoking, and downright sane at other times.

Take care until we see you again... (Well, maybe I'll stoop just this once, you libertarian tory pussy:).

Annie... it's part of the Blogging world, and to lose your voice is to have one less in the choir of voices that make blogging such an interesting world.

Or perhaps it merely people being tired of the insanity of it all.

Red Tory said...

Bilge -- Does it not seem reasonable to ask these questions, and if not, why?

Joanne -- If I have contributed to frightening off Annie with my snarky inquiries, I apologize.

Red Tory said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Joanne (True Blue) said...

ANNIE!!!! PLEASE DON'T GO!

I'll ban anyone you say. Name your price!

Joanne (True Blue) said...

As much as I don't always like Joanne's lack of a proper two-way discussion, i kind of like the topic she brought up today.

What the heck?

Florence, thank you. I appreciate the support.

O.K. Whoever votes for comment moderation and allowing only civil comments, say aye!

(Gosh, I still want this blog to be considered 'titillating reading')...

Anonymous said...

RT's rant made it to the TO Sun today wherein he degrades everyone for various low behaviour on the blogs,when I find he has regularly been the arrogant one who condemns anyone for expressing their opinion. I mentioned before, I blog Anon more often now because the personal attacks are tiresome. Joanne you might consider that others feel the same as annie.It can be very intimidating. I really appreciate thoughtful, respectful exchange of ideas(civil dialogue). That has not always been the case on this blog.
Since you asked.

Red Tory said...

Still no answer to the questions...

Chuckercanuck said...

"Isn’t the liberal MSM evil and rotten to the core?"

Not to the core, but certainly more than skindeep.

"So how can what they have to say be of any relevance?"

Being rotten and evil doesn't mean irrelevant. GWB haters will attest to that.

"Have THEY had a bout of sanity too like your “activist judges” in the previous post?"

Yes.

"And this article was published in the National Post, another organ of the MSM filled with hacks and useful idiots. What gives? "

Not filled to the brim though which makes it the loveliest of newspapers!

Anonymous said...

Even the oblivious CNN is starting to ask about just where all the "moderate" muslims are!

I wonder RT ........ have you been lonely? 3 comments to kick off one of Joane's posts! My my my.........

Anonymous said...

BTW - Have a great weekend everyone!

Joanne (True Blue) said...

"And this article was published in the National Post, another organ of the MSM filled with hacks and useful idiots. What gives? "

Not filled to the brim though which makes it the loveliest of newspapers!


Perfect response, Chucker.

PGP - I wonder RT ........ have you been lonely?

Mmm... Now there's an interesting question. I think behind all that bluster is a poor tormented soul.

vicki said...

Joanne...you are ever so gracious!

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Vicki, thank you.

And for anyone who would like to vote on the question of comment moderation, but is feeling somewhat intimidated, you can send me an email at:

jo2424@hotmail.com

Your email will be held in confidence.

Anonymous said...

why is everyone off topic

Zac said...

O.K. Whoever votes for comment moderation and allowing only civil comments, say aye!

Not that I post here that often, but c'mon...every debate get heated at times and we're all partisan so its going to get even more heated.

I notice that Annie has this to say:

I enjoy your point of view even on those occasions where I do not agree. You are intelligent, articulate and thoughtful, something rarely found online.

Ok, fine..I can agree with some of that, but then there is this:

I find that I can no long visit your site. The ongoing bickering that goes on in your comments is too tedious to get through anymore.

Ok, so Annie likes Joanne, that's established. So, Annie why don't you just read Joanne's post if you find her writing so awesome and avoid the comments section?

That might work out better than using a sledge hammer to crush a fly, if I may use such an analogy. Putting back on the comment moderation seems like a bit much. If you don't like the comments, don't read them...but hey, like I said, I dont post her much. Just a suggestion.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Zac - O.K. Thanks. That's one for the nay side.

Sheena said...

More fart jokes.
That will bridge the divide.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Thank you, Sheena. Bringing it all down to some basic human common ground...

Anonymous said...

I don't know if the original posting was talking about the documentary done by Christine Amapour (sp?) that is going to be shown on CNN Saturday and Sunday night at 8 p.m. I saw clips and it seems like the same show. If so, we are in for another wake-up call.

Tell the Liberals to quit hitting the snooze button. Wake up! It's time to go to school and live in reality.

anon #83

Cherniak_WTF said...

ven the oblivious CNN is starting to ask about just where all the "moderate" muslims are!
Wow SweaterGuy - more and more racist everyday I see....
Are all Christians Jesus freaks?
Are all Christians racist bigots?
Are all Christians baby killers?
Are all Christians pedophiles?
Are all Christians sexual deviants?
Are all Christians warmongers?

Anonymous said...

Remember - don't feed the trolls!

Of course, it's your blog; do whatever you want with the comments, just as you do with your posts, Joanne. Personally, I'm ok with removing the posts from trolls. They don't contribute anything - except maybe to high blood pressure.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Kunoichi, thanks. I have been getting advice from others along those lines.

Anon at Fri Jan 19, 04:28:22 PM EST - Perhaps I was a bit too flippant before, and for that I apologize.

Of course there are wonderful moderate Muslims in the world, and in Canada here especially who are doing all they can to make this a better country. They are also vigilantly watching for extremist behaviour in mosques, etc.

You are right. Militant extremist points of view have been found in many religions over time.

We should not stereotype but we should also not be so gullible as to close our eyes and hope all the extremism will go away. If we do, it will be at our own peril.

Moderate muslims who integrate well into our society and advocate western views are perhaps most at risk here.

Red Tory said...

I thought I asked some reasonable questions that spoke to the fact Joanne (and others) have in the past trashed the dreaded MSM as being havens of liberalism, yet when an article is published and/or TV feature aired that pleases their sensibilities (e.g., the concept of “Moderate Muslims” being a bogus and scary deception) by the supposedly “liberal” media, all of a sudden these are not disreputable, unreliable sources of information, but worth referring to. I see the weird contradiction here has not been addressed, although one commenter packed it in, another made some snitty little remarks, Chucker tossed off a few one-liners, Joanne wants to hold a vote on whether to moderate comments, there is speculation as to whether I’m a lonely poor tormented soul. Oh, and one that wants to have me punted because I don’t contribute anything to the circle jerk. But no answer to the question. Is it conceivable that I’ve caught you out in a bit of a lie here? That this MSM bashing thing is a tad baseless or fraudulent?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Joanne you might consider that others feel the same as annie.It can be very intimidating.

Anon, thanks. I appreciate your candor. I'll do what it takes to raise the bar here.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Red, I'm going to be honest with you here, for your own benefit.

The problem isn't what you say; it's how you say it.

You do have awesome literary talent. I admire the way you phrase things in your posts. I enjoy the wording and the intent of the posts for the most part. In comments you can be thought-provoking and challenging.

Now here's the part you won't want to hear: You use your overbearing mean-spirited, callous, snide attitude to demean and score verbal points at the expense of others, and to make yourself feel and look so superior in the process. You have used vulgar terms to put down certain women, myself included.

Have you noticed that the ones that frequent your place tend to be the same old crowd? What you accuse me of with a circle of cheer-leaders is exactly what you have over there and I won't be a part of that. Of course if an opinion is ventured which is contrary to what the Great Red has decreed, then the unlucky intruder is devoured like a poor fly who has unwittingly flown into a web of a hungry spider with the choir of drones assisting in the kill. (O.K., not a great analogy there, but you get the picture). I think your chorus is made up of folks that think it's safer to be on the side of the abuser than against him.

I would love to debate you without the rhetoric and crap and vile that seems to emanate from your every post.

When I see a change, I'll start responding to your questions; some of which actually have merit. I don't "lie" Red. Sometimes I make a mistake, but I never lie. You toss that around way too frequently.

It is an aspersion cast against my character and I resent it. Don't ever accuse me of lying again.

Red Tory said...

You’re still fudging and being evasive Joanne. Now you’re suggesting that I’m insulting (and yes indeed I can be), demeaning to women (I’m pretty indiscriminate in that regard), snotty and condescending. But you’re still not answering the question that I asked and that put to you in a polite, respectful (albeit sarcastic) way.

I’m sorry if you feel like an insect that’s inadvertently flown into a bug-zapper when you come to my place because that’s not really the intention. Well, yeah… maybe it is, at least to a degree. I don’t suffer fools all that gladly.

The remark about women who visit my blog intrigues me more than a bit. I don’t like be compared to a sexual abuser. That was a pretty low blow and quite reprehensible in my opinion. If I was one of those really snarky kind of people, I’d indignantly demand an apology for that. Yes, there are a number of women who drop by who are delightful regulars and we tend to share the same opinions in general about this and that. Quelle Surprise! That doesn’t mean we agree on everything and, in fact, might be quite far apart on some issues. And you know what? The fact they’re even women is kind of inconsequential to me. That you describe them as “drones” is just insulting, because they’re all pretty smart cookies to me and I’d never think of crossing them the wrong way because they’d surely let me have it. And not in a good way.

You claim that you would “love to debate” were it not for the “crap and vile that seems to emanate from your every post” and the “overbearing mean-spirited, callous, snide attitude” that I apparently express. Well, allow me to sum this up in one word: Bullshit. I have called you out for lying and being intellectually dishonest. I’m sorry if you regard that as an “aspersion against your character” but rather than defending yourself you’ve elected instead to personally attack and insult me (not only me but even people who read my blog). I don’t see a good deal of desire for a debate or discussion here.

Why not just answer the legitimate question(s) that were posed instead of providing equivocating rationalizations for why you refuse to do so?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

The remark about women who visit my blog intrigues me more than a bit. I don’t like be compared to a sexual abuser. That was a pretty low blow and quite reprehensible in my opinion

Don't act so innocent. You know what I'm referring to.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Let's see now. Red Tory suggests that I am disingenuous for quoting MSM while at the same time keeping their feet to the fire regarding integrity in reporting.

Then he reverses his decision to retire based on receiving his third "Best of the Blogs" nod from the Toronto Sun, which he has trashed without mercy in the past as being some kind of vile, worthless tabloid; and now asks for a job.

Jaw-dropping irony here.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Anon #83 - (Thanks so much for the numerical reference!)

I don't know if the original posting was talking about the documentary done by Christine Amapour (sp?) that is going to be shown on CNN Saturday and Sunday night at 8 p.m. I saw clips and it seems like the same show. If so, we are in for another wake-up call.

I heard about that too. I think it is something different but not 100% sure. I'm going to try to catch it. Thanks for the reminder.

Anonymous said...

red tory should not come to this site if HE feels so maligned
people who hate CANADA should move to a country that they can love

Anonymous said...

Good morning Joanne,

I think that the CNN Presents show is the same thing. The quotes were the same. However, there may be more than one show/documentary using this footage. Either way, I think it's something to tune in to.

Salim Mansur has a good column in today's Sun.

""The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf (endowment) consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgment Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."

This is piffle, not a serious argument derived from the Koran by Muslims to deny Jews their rights to statehood in Palestine.

Nor has any secular argument been advanced by the UN, the great powers or Israel, to deny Palestinians their similar rights.

So where is the problem? It is in the Palestinian mindset - shared by too many Muslims in general - glorifying ancient conquests as a matter of faith and insisting, in the words of the Hamas Charter (Article 8), that for Palestinians, jihad (holy war) is their duty and death for Allah's cause is their loftiest wish. "

Also, just read "Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics" by Daniel Ali (converted from Muslim to Catholicism) and Robert Spencer. Good easy informative read.

Diving into The Foreigner's Gift by Fouad Ajami (subtitled, The Americans, The Arabs and the Iraquis in Iraq).

Just for people's info in case they are interested.

Anonymous said...

Oops.....the post about the books, Salim Mansur's column was from....drum roll here....anon #83 :-)

Joanne (True Blue) said...

lol! Thanks anon #83. I enjoy reading Mansur's column.

Anonymous said...

Before I go outside for a long walk to get the cobwebs out (as one Welsh woman told me years ago to do)I need to add the last bit of Salim Mansur's quote. It was the this bit that made the point.

"No one denies the Palestinians have suffered. But there is no root cause of the Palestinian problem to be found in the Israeli occupation and poverty. If it were so, then following Palestinians, Tibetans would be blowing themselves up in Beijing and Darfurians in Khartoum."

Okay, now I've done what's right in terms of his column, and now I'll go outside in the cold air to wake up and I'll stop blogging and confusing everyone else as to what I'm trying to say....grin...although, I wouldn't be surprised if few people read what I wrote....:-)

Anon #83

Joanne (True Blue) said...

I'll stop blogging and confusing everyone else as to what I'm trying to say....grin...although, I wouldn't be surprised if few people read what I wrote....:-)

I read it #83. I appreciate the clarification and all your contributions here. I'm also very glad you have chosen an identification number. :)

Anonymous said...

Hundreds of tibetans are in jail for fomenting dissent against Chinese authorities, that's one of the human rights abuses named against China, in fact they often do it on foreign soil too. So bang goes that.

If I took your livelihood, your markets, your resources, your community, your job and your basic rights away its not really MY fault you are starving. Many jews fought back against Germany in world war 2, nobody said at the time "it's not really the nazi's fault". It's not a completely analogous story, but fairly close.

People seem to forget that one of the main parties in Israel's government has the same opinion about Palestines' 'right to exist'. as one faction of palestine. Unlike palestine they routinely ensure that that view isn't just rhetoric but is actively played out.

As for muslims 'taking over', I seem to remember all the uproar when a BC newspaper just happened to list how the top 20 decision makers in the US were jewish. Talk about religious control.

Right here at home we see a pretty far right wing conservative christian move that cuts off funding for equal rights, pushes policies meant to get women out of the work force- shouldn't newspapers and blogs be sounding the alarm that fundamentalist christians are 'taking over' Canada?

Some cleric in some church speaking for a religion is ludicrous. I know christians who have always believed you should be able to crack your kid in the head if they misbehave.

Many christian groups are represented by MP's too, where is the screaming about a religious group, many fundamentalist, taking over Canada. They want to take away a womans right to an abortion, they want to stop same sex marriage and other things that 'non religious' people espouse. But not only do they have over twenty in seats, they may actually take over the country in the next election.

Their violence isn't quite as direct as fundamentalist muslims, they just make womens lives so shitty and poor that they have to be prostitutes, or live in poverty begging on the streets. Many even want to make divorce a lot harder to get so that men can keep a hold on their women. They actively lobby against any move that gives special consideration to women who are in a precarious position, let alone decent funding. Nevertheless it is a 'christian' view, but only a very specific one, ie. they don't really believe in giving to the poor, Jesus must have been drunk when he said that.

This same group, which may even find representatives here, has far more in common with the worst of the moslem groups than they'd care to admit.

Want to combat the things mentioned in that article, increase children's education, increase rights for women, increas human rights, recognize MORE human rights, stop punishing the poor so that people would prefer living in abusive situations rather than be it. Stop bitching about the charter everytime somebody gets more rights. Push for actual rights for the poor, push for government spending that doesn't just hand over resources to corporations but actually is useful when people need the courts or social services.

Make a country where every single person REALLY is equal and has rights and KNOWS it, and you'll never have to worry about families with beaten children or women who feel second class.