Monday, September 18, 2006

Bit of an Over-Reaction?

Let me get this straight.

Pope Benedict quotes some text from a Byzantine emperor about historical Muslim teachings and the relation to violence. Some in the Muslim world react with anger and violence.

A notorious Muslim extremist in London obviously feels that an apology isn't good enough and that the Pope should be executed.

In Somalia, a nun is shot execution-style in the back. She forgives her killers on her death bed.

Strong Conservative
quotes Fox News as saying that, "the killing came just hours after a Somali cleric condemned the pope's speech."

So the nun can forgive her killers, but the Pope's words are unforgivable and worthy of execution?

I think the only thing the Pope is guilty of is bad communication skills.


* * * *

UPDATE: Great editorial at Spero News: Muslim reaction proves Pope's point.
Mixed reaction here.
On the other hand, Muslims vow to 'conquer Rome'.


22 comments:

Sara said...

A notorious Muslim extremist in London obviously feels that an apology isn't good enough and that the Pope should be executed.

just a bit don't you think!


Damn this will start another holy war and for two groups who believe in peace they will both kill the most... shit

Riley Hennessey said...

I'm not trying to stick up for the pope here, but I kinda find this ironic. Pope says some muslim teachings are violent, then voila, days later violent riots happen in the streets, nuns are killed by muslim extremists, and muslim terrorist groups say "the west is doomed".

I don't think the Pope should have come out and trashed the muslim faith, but I also don't think the muslim reaction should be violent either!

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Thanks, Riley. Yes, some of the Muslim extremists are proving the Pope right; even though all he did was quote someone else. He was just suggesting that discussion is preferable to violence in addressing differences.

Mac said...

I'm not a Catholic and I'm not into the whole "Pope speak for God" thing but he is a religious leader of note. The thrust of his message was that using violence in a religious context is wrong... and he used that quote to demonstrate his message is not a new one.

It looks like the terrorists are winning. By their acts of atrocity, Muslims scare entire segments of western society so badly they're willing to give up their freedom of speech (one of the founding tenets of western society) in an attempt to appease ever-ready Muslim outrage.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Mac, exactly. The school yard bully has won. We saw it with the Danish cartoons and it is happening all over again.

The immutable difference is that the Muslim extremists don't value human life. That is where they have us over a barrel. Just look at what happened in Afghanistan today with the bicycle suicide bomber blowing up our troops and injuring the children to whom they were giving out pens and notebooks.

Cherniak_WTF said...

Show me just what Jesus brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.

Mac said...

Nice try, c_wtf... Does this mean we're supposed to burn your blog? lol

Joanne (True Blue) said...

there you will find things only evil and inhuman,

WTH does that mean?

Cherniak_WTF said...

mac, my blog ain't worth much - I'd gladly sacrifice it...

It seems that the Pope should of been thinking a little more. For someone who represent the Catholic world, a bit more moderation seems in order. Given his responsibilities, and what he represents, this was no bridge building and stupid.

The Muslim reaction has been strong (and wrong). I view the present Pope as somewhat of a buffoon - I guess those radical Muslim respect him more than I do because they have taken his words at face value...

liberal supporter said...

I think the Christian world wins this skirmish in the war of rhetoric. We did turn the other cheek here, but without submitting. Many in Islam accept this gracefully, others obviously will accept nothing less than conversion and submission.

I do not recognize papal infallibility or any of that, but when the Pope speaks, I take note as he is a revered leader of Christianity, in my view.

As has been pointed out, not the best choice in wording on his part, but not cause for murder. But circa 1429 in our calendar, the Christians were having wars over the date of Easter. I would expect better of Muslims in their 1429, since the world is more advanced in general.

Even though I am a protestant, I will accept the Pope as a leading figure in Christianity.

Who is the equivalent figure in Islam? I am sure there are fringes of Christianity using this to demand death to all Muslims, but the mainstream, as somewhat represented by the pope, does not hold this view. Who speaks for Islam, that we can know this violent reaction is not the mainstream there?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

I am sure there are fringes of Christianity using this to demand death to all Muslims,

L.S., if there is, I sure haven't heard of any! But I agree with everything else you said (which is scary).

Very well articulated.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Who is the equivalent figure in Islam?

They seem to have various senior clerics.

Sara said...

It seems that the Pope should of been thinking a little more. For someone who represent the Catholic world, a bit more moderation seems in order. Given his responsibilities, and what he represents, this was no bridge building and stupid.


Yes, the Pope should of thought better than to say it. Yet he said it and apologized for the misunderstanding and he didn't mean to offend anyone. How many more times does he have to get on his knees? This is what we're saying.

If I hurt you and I say sorry and you don't accept and then hurt me in turn...

who's fault would that be?

PGP said...

What the Pope did was quote another Christian leader from 7 centuries past.

He stressed that they were not his own words, he quoted Emperor Manual II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire, the Orthodox Christian empire which had its capital in what is now the Turkish city of Istanbul in the 14th century.

The emperors words were, he said: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

How little things have changed!

Benedict is absolutely right!

Even if the uninformed and gullible find the quotation disturbing or inflamitory he was right to make this point in this context.

The reaction of the Islamist theocratic thugs was predictable and drawing out the SOB's gives the civilized world another opportunity to see them in their true light.
The weasily backpeddling the vatican bureaucrats are attempting is truly a disgrace.

Anonymous said...

And of course Tarek Fatah is touring the Media and crying about a fear of "Backlash" from the "Backlash" by Muslims that he portrays as victims of the non-Muslim ignorance about the Blasphemy Laws in Shariah that force them to be violent.

I can't help but draw a link to many of the books on Obsessive Love and the Psychy of Abusers to control people in their version of reality.
The common theme for verbally and physically abuse female spouses is the insecure child inside the controlling spouse that uses the fear of violence to silence any attempt to destroy their version of reality , paranoia by the abusers also creates justification for a perceived future attack on them which triggers an offensive assault to avert the future attack that sane people know is non-existant.
Denial is part of the false-reality to preserve it so they don't have to suffer any pain from guilt and growth that forces a major perception shift in all memories of past abuses , the psychological abuse comes at the end when the victim tries to get out of the toxic relationship that has already done harm to the persons Health .
Usually the abuser spreads lies about what you have said in the past, they convince friends that it's the victim of their abuse that wants to break-up the good marriage or relationship, this sets up a trap for the abused to be ignored as fabricating stories about the abuse,when the idea of Counselling is brought up the abuser goes on a tirade and feels it's a conspiracy to make him appear as the problem.

Compare that to Muhammad's version of God and the creation of the Quran.

Muslims that question the Quran or Muhammad suffer punishment under Shariah-law as defaming islam and the Prophet, if a wife goes before a Imam on marriage abuse issues she's treated as the trouble maker and shown why her husband has to beat her or keep her at home, if a Muslim tries to get out of the controlling faith
they are deemed an Apostate and Shariah law and Muhammad claimed they became the enemies of Allah and must be killed , any non-Muslims trying to point out problem areas in Islam and the misogyny and pedophilia by Muhammad are threatened with violence and to protect islam they evoke the blasphemy laws Muhammad created to silence negative comments about him.

Last night on the CBC a Muslims that claimed to speak for 80% of the Mosques in Toronto told the host that it's the Popes fault for not realizing that Muslims had no choice but to be offended and act out the anger through violence towards Christians.

The abuser uses violence to prevent being accused of being violent , then blames the victim for making them resort to violence to protect themselves.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Anon, if I may attempt to condense all that, are you saying that the best defence is a good offense?

Red Tory said...

This reminds me of a story from a number of years ago where a group of infuriated activists in Britain vandalized the home of a local man because they were under the impression he was a pedophile. The only thing was, it turned out he was a pediatrician. The in their zeal to exact punishment and terrorize the man, the rabid vandals failed to make this nuanced little distinction.

I’d be inclined to think that’s an urban myth, but I heard it on BBC (there was a big controversy at the time about the release of pedophile into the community). I just goes to show there are plenty of angry, violent people who don’t stop to think before they unload their outrage.

In the case of the Pope’s lecture and the wild over-reaction within the Muslim community and most especially by some fanatical extremists, the irony is staggering.

I think the Pope’s “non-apology” apology was more than appropriate and quite gracious under the circumstances. The calls for a “full apology” are entirely unwarranted and will only serve to inflame the hostile reaction amongst Muslims and then, in turn, the outrage amongst Christian extremists. And so it goes...

Joanne (True Blue) said...

I think the Pope’s “non-apology” apology was more than appropriate and quite gracious under the circumstances.

I quite agree. Hopefully this episode will lose steam after a while, just like the Danish cartoons.

Mary said...

The Pope should not apologize any more times. He has said it like it is.
Remember how the previous Pope went to the cell of the Muslim that shot him and forgave him?
That would not be possible presently as you cannot fit all the people into cells that want to kill the present one.
Things are spiraling out of control in this world.
I half expect the "Anti-Christ" to step out onto the world’s stage and the end time scenario to begin, as things get much worse.

Jay said...

I find it difficult to acknowledge this seeing I beleive religion is the root of all evil but the Pope actually was grossly taken out of context.

He was not making a speech to the general world populace but instead was discussing works of scholarly literature and the byzantine Christian emperor quote was in these literary surveys.

That said He should tend his own "flock" and butt out of everyone else's business.

Jay said...

Whats disturbing is how some people have actually taken this quote which in hindsight probably should have been left out of the Pope's talking points since its from thoughts over 500 years old to be relevant today, saying things like:

"How little things have changed!

Benedict is absolutely right!"

He was not right, if he were every single muslim would have blown themselves up but what we have are individuals in the muslim world (read not entire muslim world) doing these acts.

Somebody's lumping everything into one group again.

Mac said...

One of points which the Pope was apparently trying to make was that Mohammad preached peace and unity until he came into power... at which point, Mohammad began preaching conversion by force. I suspect that's a bit too nuanced of a point for the wild-eyed church burners who really just wanted an excuse.