Thursday, November 30, 2006

More Nurture than Nature?

A recently released Danish study suggests that early childhood and family factors could have an influence on sexual orientation.

In general, early father or mother absenteeism may be one influence. Others could be urban vs. rural habitation and birth order.

("Childhood Family Correlates of Heterosexual and Homosexual Marriages: A National Cohort Study of Two Million Danes," by Morten Frisch and Anders Hviid, Archives of Sexual Behavior Oct 13, 2006. - H/T Lifesite.)

I wonder what would happen in a same-sex family where one partner leaves the family early on in the child's life? I suppose that we'll have to wait for more Danish studies to find out.

24 comments:

Dirk said...

Point being?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Well, for one thing, don't underestimate the importance of parental interactions on a child's sexual orientation.

Red Tory said...

Ah, the pernicious idea that sexual orientation isn’t an innate trait. What about gay penguins, Joanne? Is that the result of “parental interactions” with their offspring?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

What about gay penguins, Joanne? .

That is an interesting topic. Are there lesbian penguins too Red?

liberal supporter said...

At least in the articles referenced, the word marriage was not put in quotation marks every time it had gay or homosexual in front of it.

But this being a political blog, does the research finding make a difference as to whether the queers should be allowed to marry each other?

We now allow people of different faiths to marry, and religious orientation is clearly not an innate genetic trait. Religious orientation is much more a choice than sexual orientation.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

does the research finding make a difference as to whether the queers should be allowed to marry each other?

I don't really see that this research has much to say about gay marriage. It's more about stability in a child's life, and the roles of mothers and fathers.

This is what is gnawing at me: If the early loss of a female or male parent for whatever reason could possibly affect a child's sexual orientation, what happens when the child is denied a parent of either sex right off the bat?

Futhermore, why do we even care what affects sexual orientation these days, since as Seinfeld says "Not that there's anything wrong with it"?

Just asking.

Red Tory said...

You remind me of my kids. They have a nasty habit of dropping a stink bomb and then walking away from it with the casual dismissal “I’m just saying…” There’s no accountability for what they’ve said. They just like to provoke an argument and then happily stroll off without a care.

PGP said...

Nurture? / Nature?............
These "Studies" are endless.....do not expect to see the end of them.

Just like junk science on environment the junk science of sociology draws a crowd of people who want to say "See this PROVES that I am right!"

How about this?
"I postulate that Homosexuality is natures way of removing defective genes from the pool!"

Can't prove it and I doubt if anyone can disprove it.
Yet, if I set out to conduct a study that supported this idea and that study got published and then commented on in the media....... Wouldn't there be a curfuffle?

liberal supporter said...

Study is published October 13, Lifesite decides to go with it November 29, with a byline from someone from NARTH "National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality".

Just a coincidence...

In high school biology, I recall being taught that overcrowded animals (mice) will produce more males, so the next generation would be smaller. What those males do for sexual activity was not discussed. But in an overcrowded world, homosexuality would tend to slow down population growth in times of overcrowding.

No word on whether the mice would put the gay ones to death though.

Jay said...

Actually Joanne, if you spent more time looking at all the theories today, you will see that the information is showing neither of your arguments. The ones you keep using just supports your view.

Research is showing its caused by hormones released by the mother at birth.

For males its called fraternal birth order. The more males a woman has the more likely she will have a gay male child. Its evolutions way of controlling population size. In a sense, its neither nature or nurture. The childs genes didn't do it. The raising of the child didn't do it.

If you want to name a cause, its called mom and shes responsible for the care and love of all her children morally and legally.

Jay said...

pgp,
You are trully reprehensible.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Jay, I'm not disagreeing with you here but how then would you explain lesbians?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

They just like to provoke an argument and then happily stroll off without a care.

Ah, c'mon, Red!!! I've seen you stir the pot once in a while.

liberal supporter said...

The way it looked to me, if you're from a broken home you are less likely to be bound by your family's disapproval and religious upbringing.

So you are less likely to live the lie of pretending to be straight when you are not.

One of the things I have learned from reading some of Jay's writing is that you really do know you are gay pretty early on. I may be misquoting him here, but it seems it is not at all the same as normal teenage questioning their own sexuality. You know.


Years ago, I had some manipulative person trying to convince me I must have been abused as a child. Mainly because I was not agreeing with some opinion of his, the usual ad hominem crap. I couldn't remember being beaten as a child, and since I don't recall every day of my childhood, he would try to convince me I must be blocking it out.

Then I talked with another friend who just laughed and said, bullshit, you would know, there would be no doubt. You might have blocked some traumatizing memories, but you would know they were there.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

One of the things I have learned from reading some of Jay's writing is that you really do know you are gay pretty early on.

Yep. Jay knew early on that he was gay, as did his young nephew. Around the age of 5, I believe.

Did anyone else remember their sexual orientation when they entered Kindergarten?

The only thing I remember about Kindergarten was what I would be wearing for the Hallowe'en party. But then, I was always a bit behind.

Jay said...

there are tow hormones. Its the same for women in reverse

Jay said...

sorry. let me clarify boys exposed at birth to a flood estrogen become gay men, girls exposed to testosterone in the same way become lesbians. These hormones naturally exist in both, its the sudden rush that does it.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Jay - I'm intrigued. Can you please expand on that?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

These hormones naturally exist in both, its the sudden rush that does it.

Where does the testosterone come from?

Jay said...

Half of a womens testosterone is produced by ovaries, other half by adrenal glands. Its used by the body for libido and hair growth.

With regard to knowing my orientation at 6, its due to the fact I did not fit stereotypes that you obviously did. On top of that, I had the unfortunate opportunity to be taught about the birds and bees at at the tender age of 5 by the older kids. I was not interested in what I should have been.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

its due to the fact I did not fit stereotypes that you obviously did.

Meaning what? That you weren't interested in Hallowe'en costumes?

I had the unfortunate opportunity to be taught about the birds and bees at at the tender age of 5 by the older kids.

O.K. How did that make you gay?

liberal supporter said...

"O.K. How did that make you gay?"

Still hammering the "something made you gay" mantra?

I recall being "officially" not interested in girls at 5, but I certainly was. I had my crushes on a few, but of course had no idea what to do about it. So yes, I knew. Wasn't a big deal since we were just kids and I was like everyone else.

I recall one day when I was 9 chasing another boy at recess and I would kiss him every time I caught him. I have no idea why, I think it was kind of like playing tag. We later became friends, but I didn't kiss him again.

I never even gave that a thought until I was 11 and first heard about gays. Then it was all about calling each other faggot and the response was to deny it. Another year and it switched to telling stories about which girls we'd had sex with. That was mainly to make other guys stay away from whoever you were interested in. What the girls were doing all this time, I'm not so sure.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

LS - Thanks for your candid remarks. So what is your sexual orientation now?

I think many young people waver back and forth as they grow up - which is why I don't believe there is a "gay gene", but possibly there is a genetic predisposition due to hormones or whatever, which could facilitate a tendancy to one side or the other depending on mitigating environmental factors.

That is my theory. I just have to prove it now.

liberal supporter said...

My sexual orientation these days is towards blondes, though I've always had a soft spot for redheads as well.

I've always preferred the females exclusively though. I already have my own set of male parts to play with, why would I need to play with somebody else's? That's a joke I can make because of the happenstance of my orientation.

Recall the 80% statistic you were quoting earlier. I tend to agree that there would be 16% unwavering straight and 4% unwavering gay. I' mprobably in the 80% because I suspect that if 95% of the population was gay, I would be too. I like to think I am conservative that way, i.e. traditional and mainstream (you might not agree though).

So that 80% will likely be straight but could go either way. Feel free to support encouraging those people to be straight. Hearts and minds and all that. But we still have "real" gay people, people who in the past have been unable to function as straights and been treated pretty badly, up to and including being killed for it.

I think the fact that many people consider it a case of "there but for the grace of God go I", so why make it more difficult to have a life, a partner and acceptance?