Monday, August 07, 2006

Can you be gay and pro-life at the same time?

Oh, I know I promised to stay away from these hot topics; especially in the summer. But this one is really too good to pass up.

Please read this post by McPhee, who explains his position as a gay pro-lifer. The blog itself (Children Living, Please) is well worth the visit. Lots of interesting viewpoints from the various contributors - Liberals, gays, feminists and others all united in this common goal.


H/T to Big Blue Wave for the link.

84 comments:

Zac said...

Can you be gay and pro-life at the same time?

Um, yeah.

There is no correlation between being gay and your stance on abortion, implying so is completely erroneous.

Mac said...

Yeah, I don't see the connection either.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Well, go tell that to McPhee.

Zac said...

Well Joanne, I did go check out this McPhee's person's site. I ran across this comment left by you:

This may be the issue that finally links straights and gays, so that we can find some common ground in our world views and some peace in our co-existence.

Tsk, tsk, Joanne....what might you be implying by this?

You wouldn't be implying that gays and straights cannot co-exist together without strife would you?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Well, Zac, it seems to me that many gay people find their lives less than peaceful, or at least so I have heard.

Zac said...

That is not from a lack of trying of their part. Usually it comes from people who fear their "life style" and their "promotion of special interests".

Joanne (True Blue) said...

O.K. Whatever. My point is that first of all, I have never heard a homosexual speak about being a pro-lifer or taking any stand on the issue for that matter. I believe that was part of what he was trying to say - that most gay folks see it as a heterosexual issue and therefore out of the area of their concern.

But McPhee is saying that if you are concerned about gay rights, then by extension you should be concerned about the rights of any group whose 'personhood' is in danger.

I just find it an interesting POV.

Zac said...

But McPhee is saying that if you are concerned about gay rights, then by extension you should be concerned about the rights of any group whose 'personhood' is in danger.

So, by logical extension, a person who is pro-life should be now be concerned about gay rights?

Might I see you at the Pride Parade next year Joanne?

Kerry said...

I know a lot of gay and lesbian people who, by extension of the fact that their sexual orientation doesn't allow them to have children biologically with their partners, believe that people shouldn't take newborn life for granted.

SUZANNE said...

I've seen "Children Living" on quite a few blogs now. They're getting quite a bit of attention. Thanks for the H/T! Much appreciated.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Might I see you at the Pride Parade next year Joanne?

McPhee is saying it, Zac. Not me. I do find it an interesting argument though. However, if you think that the corollary is valid, then we should be seeing you at the next pro-life rally.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Kerry, that's interesting. Thanks. Another POV I hadn't previously considered.

Suzanne - No problem. Your blog is a wealth of valuable information.

Zac said...

It was your bad argument Joanne, not mine.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

It was your bad argument Joanne, not mine.

No, it was McPhee's argument. I neither said that I agreed or disagreed. I said it was an interesting POV. As for whether the reverse would hold true regarding the original argument, I'll leave that to a logician.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Kerry, BTW, congrats on your Blue Blogging Soapbox 'Site of the Week' award!!!

Nice blog.

Zac said...

So, this is you neither agreeing nor disagreeing:

This may be the issue that finally links straights and gays, so that we can find some common ground in our world views and some peace in our co-existence.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

O.K. Zac, since you want to pin me down on this, here is how I see it: Pro-life groups are often (but not always) on the Conservative right. So are a lot of the people having a problem with same-sex marriage.

I see some common ground here, for working together if people opposed to same-sex marriage hear more from people like McPhee.

This type of thing will do more to sway hearts and minds than a thousand Gay Pride parades, which BTW have the opposite effect, IMHO.

Zac said...

So, your saying that people opposed to same sex marriage and gay rights in general will come on board if they hear that people who are gay hold some of the right wing views they do? Is that what your telling me?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Zac, I'm saying that some of those people against same-sex marriage may be more empathetic when they hear views expressed like McPhee's.

I detect a bit of hostility here. Is there a problem?

Jason Bo Green said...

Well, I think it's a pretty fair question for a person to ask. As we generally will often consider gay marriage to be a left-pushed issue, we can tend to place gays on the left of the spectrum. And, too, many gays will oppose anything right-leaning when it comes to social values.

I've never (personally) met or heard of a homosexual who opposed all abortion across the board. Most gays do support legal abortion.

I'm sure there are anti-abortion gays to be found out there, though.

Mostly you would find gays who oppose abortion-on-demand, and favour the Clinton approach - safe, legal, and rare.

Gays have a vested interest in abortion and birth rates. Most of them will not reproduce; of those, many would like to adopt.

Zac said...

Problem? No problem. I'm just trying to understand what your saying.

McPhee describes himself as a gay pro-lifer, which is fine, but you mentioned that, "some of those people against same-sex marriage may be more empathetic when they hear views expressed like McPhee's"

So your saying that a person who is homosexual may be received more favourably by opponents of same-sex marriage if that person holds the same views regarding abortion?

And on the same vein, would you be willing to say that you, personally, are more empathetic towards same-sex marriage and homosexual rights since you've read McPhee's view's.?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Jason - What do you mean by this? Most gays do support legal abortion. Just curious.

Mostly you would find gays who oppose abortion-on-demand, and favour the Clinton approach - safe, legal, and rare. Abortion on demand? That's all we have now! You're saying that most gays oppose that? I'm confused.

Zac, you ask a good question, and I would like to take some time to ponder it. Why do you find my personal opinion so interesting though? I have a feeling that you are looking for an opportunity to trap me. Am I right?

Zac said...

Why do I find your opinion so interesting?

I've never met a person as socially conservative as yourself. I'm always interested in hearing why you oppose such things as same-sex marriage and homosexual rights.

To me is seems like an easy choice, but I always like hearing what the other sides disagrees with.

Ponder away, I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say (as always).

BTW, I'm not trying to trap you. I'm not exactly looking for a debating victory or anything, just a good discussion.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Thanks, Zac. The problem is that I don't see same-sex marriage as necessarily being a God-given "right". Of course, we've disagreed on that before and we both know the drill.

Where I am struggling is with this whole issue of adoption. If I had to make a choice now between the two issues, I would have to say that I feel more strongly now about the rights of the unborn child than I do about the same-sex marriage debate. For me that's a change. I used to feel the opposite.

So that is honestly where I stand now. On the other hand, it may not be where I am tomorrow.

Zac said...

I can see and understand how people could be opposed to abortion. That's not my issue.

For the life of me, I cannot understand how people could be opposed to same-sex marriage, it hurts no one at all. It's been legal for a very long time now and everything seems to be fine. The sky hasn't fallen. Everyone seems to be ok.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Yeah, Zac. I have certainly softened my position on that. If I had to pick one battle, it wouldn't be same-sex marriage anymore.

Jason Bo Green said...

Hi Joanne - I meant that, "if anything, the MOST conservative view you'd find is that they would be for 'safe, legal, rare' abortions, like Clinton's phrase goes.

Oh, here's great news - integration is working really well - so well that gay villages all over the world are disappearing.
.

Jason Bo Green said...

Mostly you would find gays who oppose abortion-on-demand, and favour the Clinton approach - safe, legal, and rare.

I just want to be clear here.

Sorry to not be the first time.

"Looking for gays conservative on abortion, you mostly would find gays who oppose abortion-on-demand, and favour the Clinton approach - safe, legal, and rare."

Toronto Tory said...

I don't think being gay and one's opinion on abortion are connected at all.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Jason, thanks. I think I see what you're getting at now.

Toronto Tory, I guess the basic similarity would be the question of "rights", according to McPhee.

Riley Hennessey said...

Oh man I love when Zac gets all in a huff.

I think Joanne was trying to say if you support Gay rights, then you might logically support fetus rights. I dunno I'm just guessing.

Also Zac, if Joanne is the most right wing person you've ever encountered, you need to branch out. I've met REAL ideological right wingers, and Joanne isn't someone I'd place in that category.

Also if I could weigh in on gay marriage... I never understood why either side couldn't understand the OTHER side.

Christians think marriage is between a man and a woman, and since their religion came up with the idea of "marriage" they want to keep in in their realm.

Same sex couples want a union so that they have the same rights as the rest of us, (tax benefits, visual respect, acceptance) I see no problem in that. I myself am fine with gay marriage, it doesn't hurt anyone. But I can understand why married couples want the NAME "marriage" reserved for religious purposes. "Marriage" after all is a christian term and was only adopted by the state for legal purposes. Which is why Britain proposed SS Unions instead of marriage.

"A rose is a rose by any other name" perhaps? haha I just threw that last line in for a laugh.

I just jumped into this fray cause I was surprized Zac said Joanne was THE most conservative person he'd ever met. I've had a prof who makes Joanne look like Jack Layton.

Does anyone else notice that the second anyone says "boo" about SSM they are attacked as crazy right wingers? It's the boogeymoster in the room I think. If someone in the Conservative party SUPPORTED SSM are they labeled "crazy left wingers"? What about a Conservative who supported abortion? Would they be called left wingers too?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Riley - I think Joanne was trying to say if you support Gay rights, then you might logically support fetus rights. That's what McPhee was saying.

I just jumped into this fray cause I was surprized Zac said Joanne was THE most conservative person he'd ever met. I've had a prof who makes Joanne look like Jack Layton. lol!!! O.K. that is funny!! Seriously though, I agree with you. I have met people who are angry and seething with rage about this. I don't see this as the end of the world. Now the Middle East is a different story.

That's right Riley. You mention the word and everyone descends on you like a pack of vultures. It doesn't matter if it's abortion or SSM. If you note, my post was about a gay man's views on abortion. However, I was attacked as if it were my viewpoint! Don't kill the messenger! (Even though the messenger might agree with a thing or two that was said).

Zac said...

Riley, I'm in a huff? I don't think so. I even told Joanne that. I'm not at all angry about a thing.

And for the record, Joanne is the most socially conservative person that I have ever encountered in my entire life. That other lady, with the fetus as her avatar, is probably up there with you. Same with "prarie mom", that "Vicki" lady, who has apparently dropped off the face of the earth, and the "sweater guy" are all up there as well.

Oh, and by the way Riley, Christians didn't "come up with" marriage, they invented the word "marriage". People have been partnering themselves through sexual attraction to one another before Jesus decided to show up.

Ancient civilizations proceeded like this for years. They even allowed people of the same gender to come toghether (what an odd concept that is). It wasn't until Christianity that marriage became the sole realm of a man and women.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

"prarie mom"??

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Actually, "Prairie Mom" is one of your folks, Zac:

I would consider myself Zac's riff-raff, not Joanne's...with no offense to Joanne.

(And none taken).

BTW, Riley, I didn't perceive Zac to be in a huff, from my POV. I thought we had one of our better debates today. Very respectful. He and you are both good debaters and I enjoy in input.

Riley Hennessey said...

Folks,

I should clarify "huff"... I meant he was super engaged and energized by an issue. I get in "huffs" all the time its not a slander and doesn't necessarily mean you're angry. You're just "charged".

And again, I know people who are MUCh more socially conservative than Joanne. As in those who think natives should be sent packing to hell, environment issues are made up, and gays should be jailed, shackled and locked up for centuries. I just think when you paint Joanne as someone that far to the right of the spectrum, you're reallllly narrowing your focal point. Joanne's a conservative alright, but walk around the streets of calgary you'll meet people way more to the right than Joanne.

I know people have been partnering for eons but thanks for the history lesson haha. If you'll read my post you'll see I said they came up with the "term" marriage.. hence my "a rose is a rose by any other name".

I just ask "whats in a name?" whether you call it "marriage" or SS civil union... I never understood the outrage. Everyone is SOOO upset over names and labels. It really makes me laugh.

You act like I'm all against SSM when I clearly said I supported it. I don't need a "by the way Riley, ancient blah blah"... I'm well aware life didn't start at Jesus. I was simply trying to say "hey, why doesn't either side understand either side?".

You going to label me one of the most conservative people you've ever met too? hah

Danté said...

Zac you have too much time on your hands.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Riley, yeah "charged" is a good word; like passionate.

Riley, that is funny about Zac thinking I'm the most socially conservative person he has "met"; if you can "meet" someone online.

All I can say is that he needs to expand his horizons a bit. Yes, I agree Riley, I'm just this side of Jack Layton! ;)


Zac you have too much time on your hands. Dante, ouch! Either too much time or not spending it wisely. I just sit down to the computer for a moment, but the 'moment' turns into hours! I am going to go cold turkey one of these days.

Zac said...

I don't act like your all against SSM. I never did, so I'm not sure where you got that from. Should I be surprised that your twisting my words Riley?

I'm very lucky that I've never met any of the people that you've described. Obviously you've spent much more time mucking about in the cesspool that is far right ideology that I have. Pity that I haven't had the chance to "walk around the street's of Calgary".

Since you don't need my history lesson, so to speak, does that mean I still have to be subjected to your endless diatribe about how I don't understand foreign policy? Or how I don't understand trade? Or perhaps there's another subject you'd like to apply your condescending attitude towards?

Zac said...

Fine Joanne, I've never met you. Does that mean that I'm dead to you like RT is?

Zac said...

All I can say is that he needs to expand his horizons a bit.

This from the person who states her opposition to passing out condoms in schools because kids that don't have condoms won't have sex. Bah - I'm the one who need to expand his horizons, give me a break!

Joanne (True Blue) said...

This from the person who states her opposition to passing out condoms in schools because kids that don't have condoms won't have sex.

What???? When did I ever say that?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Mmm... "Huff" may have been the right word after all, Riley.

Now Zac, don't go away mad.

Does that mean that I'm dead to you like RT is?

It was Red who said that I was dead to him. The man can dish it out, but he sure can't take it. I think I hurt his wibble feewings.

Riley Hennessey said...

Alright Zac seriously calm down.

I have not tried to be condescending to you on purpose I apologize if I have.

I did not mean to imply you've never been to Calgary, don't know why you took it that way. I just think if you want to fight real-righty's, you'd find them in Calg. I just find it surprizing you've never met more conservative people? They exist trust me. I haven't purposefully spent time looking for them, they just appear.

I dunno Zac, you jump all over me personally all the time I don't get it. When I debate you on foreign policy, I hope that it's ABOUT foreign policy, and not about Zac personally. Foreign and Defence policies are my schtick, so I can get very intense with them i'll give you that. I'm sure you would be the same for whatever your schtick is. There's no harm intended.

I have never had a problem with you ever, but I'm beginning to suspect perhaps you have one with me?

It's blogging, it's going to get testy. I didn't mean for my post to be agressive but I see you've taken it that way.

Zac said...

From what you said about his mother, I can't say that I wouldn't have reacted the same way.

Zac said...

What???? When did I ever say that?

Last abortion debate.

I suggested that the better route for pro-lifers to take would be to reduce abortions through sexual education and passing out condoms at school. You said something like that would encourage sex so you said no.

Zac said...

I've never had a problem with you, but I don't take kindly to personal attacks. Perhaps you meant everything a different way, its hard to determine tone when your only reading off of a web page.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

O.K. Zac, let's back up a bit here. First of all, what do you mean by personal attacks?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

From what you said about his mother, I can't say that I wouldn't have reacted the same way.
And what exactly did I say about his mother?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

I suggested that the better route for pro-lifers to take would be to reduce abortions through sexual education and passing out condoms at school. You said something like that would encourage sex so you said no.

That's really different from saying that kids who don't have condoms won't have sex!

But even so, there may be a way to give out this information without being seen to be condoning the behaviour. I'm just having trouble following all the different directions you're going off on here.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Riley, I honestly don't understand what just went on here. If you can explain it to me, I would be most grateful.

Riley Hennessey said...

Well SSM and abortion are hot button issues, and as we've seen here.... hot button issues become hot button discussions. Let's all just cool out.

Zac said...

And what exactly did I say about his mother?

I don't know. Whatever you said on his site that made him so angry. I thought it was about his mother, but I could have been wrong. I read the thread like 3 days later after Nicole pointed it out.

Zac said...

I honestly don't understand what just went on here.

It doesn't matter. It's done.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

I don't know. Whatever you said on his site that made him so angry. I thought it was about his mother, but I could have been wrong.

So you're taking his side and you can't even remember what it was about!

I will refresh your memory shortly.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

RT said: Vesti -- Our first was an absolute nightmare. Wouldn’t sleep, screamed all night, relentlessly unsatisfied, etc. Sometimes I really, really wanted to shake the living hell out of her (as shameful as that sounds) but, man, it was tempting. Now she hates me with a passion. Oh, the joys.

Friday, August 04, 2006 10:22:22 AM

I then said to this comment:

"Now she hates me with a passion"

That one needs no explanation. Poor kids.

Somehow that gave Red the right to call me a four letter word that starts with "C" and ends with "t"!

Look, he has said so many nasty things to me and I have never ever sworn at him. Not once. As I said he can dish it out, but he can't take it.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Look Zac, whatever did happen here, I still think we had a good discussion. I have learned a lot from you in many different ways, and I think I am a better person for it.

As Riley said, these are hot-button issues and they do tend to get people stirred up.

Zac said...

Ok...I thought that you were talking about his mother.

I just kinda went down the comments section very quickly to see what all the fuss was about.

Zac said...

whatever did happen here, I still think we had a good discussion. I have learned a lot from you in many different ways, and I think I am a better person for it

As I you. It's all good.

Assalam Alaikum....

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Yeah, I totally don't get why he reacted like that. I mean, what I said was sarcastic, but it's not like he's never said anything sarcastic himself!

And the four letter words that spewed forth after that! Well, that cinched it for me. Never again.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Assalam Alaikum....?

SUZANNE said...

Assalam Alaikum....?

That's Arabic for "Peace be with you".

Zac said...

Assalam Alaikum

Peace be with you.

I just hope that I wrote it correctly.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Cool! Peace be with you guys too!

Group hug now. Night Zac! Night Suzanne!

Zac said...

Goodnight.

Gabby in QC said...

For Joanne, Zac and others who may need a bit of levity, or a bit of clarity on where they and their opponents stand politically, here are some fun quizzes I discovered during the last election campaign. Please understand there is no malice intended on my part towards any contributor to this blog.

1. Which PM would you be?
http://tinyurl.com/g8htn

2. Explore each leader and party's vision, platform, policies and integrity, as well as any other values you judge to be important qualities of a Canadian Prime Minister and governing party.
http://tinyurl.com/obczf

3. This website introduces a short 12-item questionnaire. Each question presents the positions of 4 political parties on a crucial point from the current (Jan 23, 06) election race.
http://www.saplin.com/vote2006/

4. Do you really know where the parties stand?
Read party responses on several major issues in this year's general election.
http://www.votebyissue.org/cbc/

5. This is geared to Americans but is still informative.
http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=61431

6. And finally, since Joanne's position vs Jack Layton's was mentioned, hope this elicits a chuckle:
From http://www.derision2006.com/
Layton would legalize same-person marriage.

December 14, 2005 10:26PM (EST)
VANCOUVER (CPB) – Speaking to a crowd of supporters in Vancouver today, NDP Leader Jack Layton vowed to prevent discrimination against persons who are the person they wish to marry. “The courts’ interpretation of marriage has been unconstitutional and discriminatory toward same-person couples,” said Layton. “I believe that all rights and privileges of marriage should be extended to those who choose to take their nuptials alone.” Supporters cheered – “Don’t groan. Don’t moan. We have sex alone!”

Oh, no! I just read the last few comments. I came to the party too late, and everybody's gone home. Well, I'll post anyway ...

Jason Bo Green said...

Psst... I think Zac is gay, and had an abortion, and is professionally employed passing out condoms at schools!

You didn't hear it from me!


;)

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Ha-ha! Gabby and Jason, thanks to you for both trying to cool things down a bit here. I think Zac and I are o.k. now. We both feel strongly about various issues, which can cause the sparks to fly, but in the end we both respect each other.

I feel the same way about Riley, although lately we are agreeing more than disagreeing. ;)

Gabby, I took a peek at the quizzes. Looks like fun! I will check them all out more thoroughly in a bit. I'm having some problems with my BT links showing up in the wrong place, so I will need to do some trouble-shooting. Where is my IHTG??? Get home now!!!

Gabby in QC said...

I'm sorry, I'm not up on all acronyms, so I'm not sure what "BT and IHTG" refer to.

I just hope that I haven't caused you any problems with the links. The addresses were too long so I used TinyUrl to reduce them.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Gabby - I'm sorry, I'm not up on all acronyms, so I'm not sure what "BT and IHTG" refer to.

-BT means Blogging Tories
-IHTG is my own acronym for In House Tech Guy who is currently AWOL. ;)

Tiny URL's are great! Don't worry. You didn't cause the problems. The problem was there before you posted. I think it was bad code somewhere.

On the other hand, you did just give me another idea to check on. Thanks.

jeff davidson said...

chew on this joanne, i consider myself to be pro-choice and anti-abortion........

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Jeff, believe it or not, I can see where those would not necessarily be mutually exclusive concepts!

Zac said...

I think Zac is gay, and had an abortion, and is professionally employed passing out condoms at schools!

I'm also a communist, with a black belt, who likes to watch re-runs of friends in my boxer shorts while eating cookie dough from a bucket. Plus I'm half chinese and black from the waist down.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

I'm also a communist, with a black belt, who likes to watch re-runs of friends in my boxer shorts while eating cookie dough from a bucket. Plus I'm half chinese and black from the waist down.

lol! That's a visual image I could have lived without!!!

Zac said...

That's a visual image I could have lived without!!!

I know that it ain't pretty, but Jason wanted to get to know me better.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Ah-hah... Well, Zac I will leave you two alone now. ;)

Zac said...

I'll leave the light on for him....

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Ah, Zac. You're too much. That's why I can never stay mad at you for long.

Jason Bo Green said...

Cookie dough - hot!

I can eat a whole package in one sitting.

Also, a whole package of those Pillsbury fruit turnovers. Uncooked, of course. But cooked too, sure. If you insist.

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Can you two please get a room?

SUZANNE said...

Jeff: then "anti-abortion" is meaningless. The fight against abortion is in favour of fetal rights.

Are you in favour of fetal rights?

Joanne (True Blue) said...

Oh, good Suzanne! I'm so glad you're taking this one!

Nicole said...

Riley, I'm in a huff?

I also LOVE when Zac gets all huffy....have missed you guys, ALL of you!

Joanne (True Blue) said...

have missed you guys, ALL of you!

Awww... That's nice. Time for another group hug when Zac and Riley drop by.