tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post7686601002715488747..comments2023-10-19T06:24:41.808-04:00Comments on Joanne's Journey: Final Decision re: MMPJoanne (True Blue)http://www.blogger.com/profile/17445664997050698154noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-32085615881349250672007-08-31T11:50:00.000-04:002007-08-31T11:50:00.000-04:00LKO - I'll give you "E" for effort, that's for sur...LKO - I'll give you "E" for effort, that's for sure. ;)<BR/><BR/>So why do you suppose that Bryant and Smitherman would be in the "for" camp?Joanne (True Blue)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17445664997050698154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-40589664530141295352007-08-31T11:20:00.000-04:002007-08-31T11:20:00.000-04:00Hi again!Just thought you'd be interested in this ...Hi again!<BR/><BR/>Just thought you'd be interested in <A HREF="http://www.voteformmp.ca/node/88" REL="nofollow">this post</A> which strongly suggests that the powers that be in the government (i.e. the powers that be in the Liberal Party of Ontario) would REALLY like to see MMP go down to defeat.Lord Kitchener's Ownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348376638620272991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-63771944865233857872007-08-30T16:42:00.000-04:002007-08-30T16:42:00.000-04:00Joanne,Yeah, It'll be interesting to see what Greg...Joanne,<BR/><BR/>Yeah, It'll be interesting to see what Greg finally decides, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he came down on the MMP side.<BR/><BR/>I really wish there was a "Tories for MMP" site somewhere, like the Grit one that got this post going. Hugh Segal's support, and some support from some other Blogging Tories, and other generally "right of centre" bloggers lets me know that they're out there, it's just too bad there's no organized site for them.Lord Kitchener's Ownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348376638620272991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-88869464035404555932007-08-30T15:57:00.000-04:002007-08-30T15:57:00.000-04:00LKO - Yes, Family Coalition is a huge supporter of...LKO - Yes, Family Coalition is a huge supporter of MMP.<BR/><BR/>You may have another convert <A HREF="http://www.bloggingtories.ca/btFrameset.php?URL=http://www.politicalstaples.com/2007/08/30/why_i_am_considering_mmp.html&TITLE=Why%20I%20am%20considering%20MMP" REL="nofollow">here </A> as well.<BR/><BR/>As for me, I'm not budging for the moment.Joanne (True Blue)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17445664997050698154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-65456412457346125892007-08-30T15:56:00.000-04:002007-08-30T15:56:00.000-04:00Sorry, I just couldn't resist.I love you, too.<I>Sorry, I just couldn't resist.</I><BR/><BR/>I love you, too.Brian in Calgaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11143445667558848000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-63916296385956748052007-08-30T10:21:00.000-04:002007-08-30T10:21:00.000-04:00Good to hear Joanne,Ironically, I viewed the video...Good to hear Joanne,<BR/><BR/>Ironically, I viewed the video myself, and there were times I said "Ohhh, that's SO the wrong argument". Some of what he said in the video seemed to be based on PR generally, not MMP, and some on MMP, but not the actual VERSION of MMP recommended by the Ontario Citizens Assembly. Anyway, I think a much more convincing argument can be made.<BR/><BR/>One point I wanted to make was on the 3% threshold, which in the video it's suggested is too low, even though that is the threshold recommended by the OCA (I think this video might have actually been made BEFORE the OCA made their specific recommendations). I just wanted to point out that while 3% may seem quite low, it's important to keep in mind that in the last election no party that didn't win seats got more than 3%. The Green Party came closest with 2.8%. Besides the Green Party, no other small party received even ONE percent of the vote in the last election.<BR/><BR/>Just wanted to mention that because so many opponents of MMP seem really upset at the idea that MMP will somehow allow "fringe parties" to take over. Now, I've never understood what's supposedly so bad about a party that gets 3% of the vote getting 3% of the power, but still. While the Greens probably could get some few seats under MMP (if they increase their vote total by about 8000 votes or so) keep in mind that all those other parties would have to AT LEAST QUADRUPLE their vote (in most cases, much more than quadruple) to get any seats under MMP.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure I'd ever want the "Family Coalition Party of Ontario" to have ANY power in Ontario, but if they somehow manage to QUADRUPLE their support among the elctorate, I'm not sure why they should be denied 2 or 3 seats.Lord Kitchener's Ownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348376638620272991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-23273989604540982622007-08-29T16:20:00.000-04:002007-08-29T16:20:00.000-04:00Lord Kitchener - I watched the video, and although...Lord Kitchener - I watched the video, and although it didn't sway me over to the other side, it did cause me to try to keep an open mind on the subject. Thanks for the info.Joanne (True Blue)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17445664997050698154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-78374228601395023692007-08-29T14:14:00.000-04:002007-08-29T14:14:00.000-04:00LKO - I promise to check that out later. Thanks fo...LKO - I promise to check that out later. Thanks for the link.Joanne (True Blue)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17445664997050698154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-71440364163259012652007-08-29T14:06:00.000-04:002007-08-29T14:06:00.000-04:00Thanks, Red. It was amazing to see that there is a...Thanks, Red. It was amazing to see that there is actually another world out there beyond blogging.<BR/><BR/>Also, no TV, no computer and only a local newspaper helped keep the blood pressure down.Joanne (True Blue)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17445664997050698154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-18254089152948816672007-08-29T13:28:00.000-04:002007-08-29T13:28:00.000-04:00Hey, nice to see you back, by the way. Hope you en...Hey, nice to see you back, by the way. Hope you enjoyed your mental health break from blogging and enjoyed a bit of the summer. Good for you!Red Toryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00422305796158017027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-6868438274180638312007-08-29T13:27:00.000-04:002007-08-29T13:27:00.000-04:00You're citing "Porno Christian" and a guy from Fre...You're citing "Porno Christian" and a guy from FreeDominion to bolster your argument... Wow. Talk about "reliable sources." ;) <BR/><BR/>Sorry, I just couldn't resist.Red Toryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00422305796158017027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-50677983484572410242007-08-29T12:47:00.000-04:002007-08-29T12:47:00.000-04:00I haven't watched this whole video yet, but FYI, h...I haven't watched this whole video yet, but FYI, <A HREF="http://uncorrectedproofs.blogspot.com/2007/08/conservative-case-for-mmp.html" REL="nofollow">here's a post</A> with a video puporting to lay out a conservative argument argument in favour of MMP.<BR/><BR/>It's true that there don't seem to be many on the right supporting MMP, which I find sad as I think this reform is much more important than partisan politics (not that all opponents of MMP are opponents for partisan reasons, but the seemingly overwhelming lack of support on the right can't be ENTIRELY devoid of partisanship).<BR/><BR/>However, there are conservatives in favour of MMP, and I would encourage those of you on the right to listen to their arguments before making a decision. Perhaps their arguments won't sway you either, but at least you'll know that you're truly evaluating the arguments, and not being influenced by the partisanship of the speaker (as you might be when someone like me, or someone much further to the left, is trying to convince you of the efficacy of MMP).Lord Kitchener's Ownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348376638620272991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-51942841106218419012007-08-28T23:19:00.000-04:002007-08-28T23:19:00.000-04:00I having reached a decision on this yet, but again...I having reached a decision on this yet, but again as I said before, I wish one of the smaller provinces would try it out first, not one of the main economical engines of the countryBurton, Formerly Kingstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05539157151309542216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-64725763462751000132007-08-28T22:20:00.000-04:002007-08-28T22:20:00.000-04:00Thanks, Brian, both for the kind words and the lin...Thanks, Brian, both for the kind words and the link. Good read there.Joanne (True Blue)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17445664997050698154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-82777359232573766732007-08-28T22:13:00.000-04:002007-08-28T22:13:00.000-04:00I fear that it will guarantee minority governments...I fear that it will guarantee minority governments too often. It seems to work in some other countries, but look at Italy - an election almost every year since 1945, because any coalition falls apart very rapidly. If we change, minority parties will have too much clout! I'd sooner keep our current system--at least we can turf them out on a rotating basis.John M Reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13704715207786444650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-62492984819617722072007-08-28T21:30:00.000-04:002007-08-28T21:30:00.000-04:00There are good arguments for MMP and good argument...There are good arguments for MMP and good arguments against MMP. However, <A HREF="http://www.pomochristian.ca/archives/2007/08/28/proportional-representation-invoking-godwin/" REL="nofollow">here's</A> the argument that would sway me if I were faced with having to choose. As the son of a WW2 Canadian Navy veteran, I think it's obvious which way it would prompt me to vote.<BR/><BR/>Oh, welcome back, Joanne.Brian in Calgaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11143445667558848000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-86355132436541541972007-08-28T20:48:00.000-04:002007-08-28T20:48:00.000-04:00Moebius, thanks for the warm welcome. It's nice to...Moebius, thanks for the warm welcome. It's nice to know that I was missed.<BR/><BR/>Great discussion going on in response to Sandy's post at <A HREF="http://jacksnewswatch.com/2007/08/28/sandy-eden-a-fb-publicly-funded-hs-that-works/#comments" REL="nofollow">Jack's Newswatch</A> about funding of faith based schools.Joanne (True Blue)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17445664997050698154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-19531454767379628862007-08-28T20:22:00.000-04:002007-08-28T20:22:00.000-04:00And, oh yes, welcome back, Joanne, you were missed...And, oh yes, welcome back, Joanne, you were missed!<BR/><BR/>And, for those typing furiously, I know that Catholic funding was originally introduced by a Conservative.Möbiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851148006420274055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-58629029091514305612007-08-28T20:18:00.000-04:002007-08-28T20:18:00.000-04:00LS spake thusly,"The Sun tried to spin it as disse...LS spake thusly,<BR/><BR/>"The Sun tried to spin it as dissent within the conservative ranks. Even called them "sour"!"<BR/><BR/>This religious education thing is the stupidest idea I've ever heard from a Conservative. I have a feeling when the writ is officially dropped, it may disappear.<BR/><BR/>It's really the only way Tory can blow this election, if he doesn't withdraw it. He's giving DMcG a fighting chance, much more than he deserves, since he is promoting the status quo, even worse.<BR/><BR/>As to MMP, the thought of continuous minority governments doesn't bother me. Majority governments in Ontario have given us religious funding (Catholic only), a health tax (now being spent to buy votes), a huge debt, the Drive-Clean scam, etc.Möbiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851148006420274055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-90316438020658452572007-08-28T18:34:00.000-04:002007-08-28T18:34:00.000-04:00It's true, the NDP do want this (although for some...It's true, the NDP do want this (although for some bizarre reason they have decided not to campaign for it), but then if you got 20% of the vote and 10% of the seats, you might be a bit pro-MMP too.Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06509182679650412982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-21218228738380413852007-08-28T18:22:00.000-04:002007-08-28T18:22:00.000-04:00The ones who want it the most are NDP'rs.They've b...The ones who want it the most are NDP'rs.<BR/><BR/>They've been on this for years and years and years and want it for Federal government as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-84856602744730113872007-08-28T17:47:00.000-04:002007-08-28T17:47:00.000-04:00Sandra, thanks for mentioning that. I have heard o...Sandra, thanks for mentioning that. I have heard of that before, and it seems like a better system than MMP.<BR/><BR/>See, that's the thing. It doesn't have to be one or the other. There are other possibilities.<BR/><BR/>Nicol, thanks. ;)Joanne (True Blue)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17445664997050698154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-80987002675553068862007-08-28T17:43:00.000-04:002007-08-28T17:43:00.000-04:00Out here in BC we had a similar process and our ci...Out here in BC we had a similar process and our citizens group came up with the Single Transferable Vote (STV)system. The political parties hated it and campaigned vigouiously against it and it was defeated by 1% in one riding. All other ridings voted over 60% for it so it will be on the ballot again next election. It is a much fairer system and takes control away from the political parties. It gives popular independent candidates a much better chance of getting elected. It is how Ireland and New Zealand elect their parliaments. Cheers. sandraAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-50751282441789703412007-08-28T17:41:00.000-04:002007-08-28T17:41:00.000-04:00Good for you Joanne,You have chosen...wisely.Good for you Joanne,<BR/><BR/>You have chosen...wisely.Nicol DuMoulinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407064094705140796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20283843.post-67330978524640899262007-08-28T17:35:00.000-04:002007-08-28T17:35:00.000-04:00Joanne - I try not to be deliberately insulting on...Joanne - I try not to be deliberately insulting on your blog, but that has to be the most asinine rationale for voting against MMP that I've yet read.<BR/><BR/>Surely, the near complete silence of the MSM on the referendum should give you a clue?<BR/><BR/>Neither the Liberals or the PC's want MMP. Those two parties have a vested interest in the existing de facto two party system and neither is interested in sharing power when each has a 50:50 chance to form a majority government (Bob Rae's term notwithstanding).<BR/><BR/>Near as I can tell, neither party is about good government - they care about winning a majority, voter preferences be damned. If they can get that coveted majority with 40% of the vote, so much the better.<BR/><BR/>Given that the Liberals and PC's are the same indeterminate shade of gray, why the squeeing over the "impossibility" of conservative policies ever being implemented?<BR/><BR/>Look at the current federal government, for the love of gawd. The Cons can pass laws with the support of either the Libs or the NDP (at last count anyway), and I haven't noticed any paralysis over the last year and a half.<BR/><BR/>Like it or not, we don't have a system where 50% plus one of the voters make a binary choice. We do have a system where an "elected" government can rule -- not govern -- unimpeded for four years or more <I>against the wishes of sixty percent of the populace</I>. That is true whether the government is PC, Liberal, or NDP.<BR/><BR/>In no way is that even remotely democratic, no matter where you happen to land on the political map. <BR/><BR/>If we don't make an effort at representative government, we have only ourselves to blame when the next McGuinty, Rae or Harris takes us on their partisan magic carpet ride.valiantmauzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17851809667342087376noreply@blogger.com